Episode 83: Disrupt ABA with Nick Chappell and Diana Wolf

Building Better Businesses in ABA is edited and produced by KJ Herodirt Productions

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Transcript

Jonathan: 0:31

My guests today are Diana Wolf and Nick Chappell. Diana and Nick are the co CEOs of Verbal Beginnings. They're both BCBAs. They're both super humble. They're both co founders of the Disrupt ABA Conference coming up in November. And they're two of possibly the coolest people I have ever known in the field. Diana and Nick, welcome to the pod.

Nick: 0:51

Thank you.

Jonathan: 0:52

we've been talking about doing this for years now. I think like our friendship has gone back to an autism investor summit, maybe two, three, four years ago, we got together at an awesome little LA cafe sitting outside of the sidewalk. And we just had like, I don't know, there were so many connections that we made around. My, actually my co founder, Will and I, our organization Ascend and there was so much simpatico in how we thought about the world and about quality and about core values. So I am pumped to be talking with y'all a chunk about verbal beginnings and then we're going to be dishing on the Disrupt ABA conference coming up soon. So let's start with verbal beginnings. I've just been fascinated by y'all's journey and what an extraordinary organization you've built. So Diana, tell me something that I know is so important to you is this idea of investing in your people and just being core values focused. Tell me more about how you do that.

Diana: 1:42

Oh yeah. So, I guess, well, a long time ago, we realized that we didn't have core values within the organization and we needed some. So in order to get some, we looked within the organization to see what people were doing at Verbal Beginnings and our core values came out of that. So we saw people collaborating. We saw people super excited about disseminating the science of applied behavior analysis. Educating families on the treatment plans and, participating in research and bringing that research into Verbal Beginnings means super innovative and then also inspiring others. To be part of that science. So those core values were born from our people. and right now we're so excited because people are putting them into action. We're seeing them all the time. They're helping us achieve our mission. So it's really cool. and the latest core value that we decided to add on, which we have this wheel of core values and right smack in the middle is a quality at our core. Because quality runs through everything that we do, and now we're looking at all of our processes, all of our systems, um, everything that's internal and external, we want there to be a seal of quality, because what's the point of us doing it if it's not based on quality? So, yeah, that's our story.

Jonathan: 3:07

You know what I love about that is so many organizations do it the exact opposite way, right? You got a couple founders or CEOs on the board that sit around a room and like navel gaze and then come up with what they think are like some cool hip core values that go fit into a fancy anagram or something. But you all did it the exact opposite way around you observed behaviors, you saw what people were doing day to day and, and I think, and I'm very biased with this, but that is far and away how you get the strongest core values in an organization. But let's come, and double click on this idea of like quality at the core. And Nick, I know something you're passionate about, is this idea, it's not just focusing on quality. That's one thing, right? And that's one set of challenges, but it's how do you focus on quality? As you also grow, that introduces a whole different layer to quality. So tell me how you think about that, dude.

Nick: 3:55

Right. So focusing on quality as you continue to grow. That's dynamic. It's constantly changing within an organization, especially in the field of ABA. Because when you're looking at the field of ABA, regulations change, expectations change, and what families want and how they perceive the needs of their child is constantly changing. I think, you know, more in the past when Diana and I were involved, we were more hands on with the clients and we were able to really have an understanding of it just personally, but as the company grows and we start stepping out, it really boils down to the fact that you have to hire the right people. And we started off with great clinical supervisors, which are our BCBAs and they were really focused on quality, which was amazing. But as that continued to grow and we brought on more and more people, we developed it by putting in supervisors of those individuals and really created a hierarchy. We felt that, this was an end point in looking at our future or like, you know, this is it, this is our support network. But what we found was that if we want to do consistency across the organization, We had to put in a quality assurance team and we spent the last year building on our quality assurance team, which has just been amazing. And this group of clinicians led by Rebecca Womak and they've really looked at all aspects of our organization, how it aligns with recommendations from the CASP guidelines, what we're finding from different, accreditations and the feedback from those, and really instilling that into everything that we're doing at the organization, and we're making tremendous progress. And the fact that we have a team dedicated to it means that like we're pushing the point where we can start measuring things. And yeah, that starts speaking for itself. And as BCBAs, right, we always like to measure and validate and hitting that point and saying, yeah, we're a hundred percent confident that what we're doing is quality service has just been an amazing experience.

Jonathan: 6:03

I can attest to this, what you described is realizing that it has to live beyond just you all. I kid you not, and I want to paint this picture for the listeners. We had that first dinner together a few years ago. I'll never forget. You had a big clinical supervisor meeting or I don't know, it was a quarterly meeting or it was a big meeting. But you all literally pulled an all nighter. I think you also took a red eye back and but it was the two of you out there crushing it just like doing it. This is what I say. You're so humble. You work harder than anyone I know. but I love that you took that next step of how do we put this quality assurance team in place? But I know the other thing, Diana, that's so important to y'all is that, this doesn't happen in a vacuum, just at verbal beginnings partnerships are really important too, right?

Diana: 6:42

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So, you know, speaking of quality, we have these really amazing partnerships. So our accreditation. So we are so happy. We have three friggin accreditations. Like, what? What, where did that come from? our people are awesome. So, we just got our training site accreditation, so we're so excited, from the BHCOE, so we have the BHCOE accreditation, the full accreditation for that, training site. And then recently we were one of the first two organizations to get the ACQ accreditation. you know, it's just like the seal of approval that we value quality'cause it's not a requirement. You don't have to do it, but. The reason that we have been doing it, we've been doing it for so long, is it gives us a peek into what could we possibly improve. Um, we actually, on our team, have a director of continuous improvement. because you can't stay stagnant as an organization, no matter what organization you are, you have to keep moving forward. and in order to do that, you got to figure out how you're doing, where your weaknesses are and how to fix them. So these accreditations really help us to look at verbal beginnings internally, self assess ourselves, and with the help of these accreditations. They're assessing us, too. But then we're looking at, okay, here's an action plan. We're never going to be perfect. There's always going to be something that we need to work on. And this kind of gives us a really good idea of what we can focus on for the next two years. so we really value that. We're going to keep going. these accreditations mean a lot to us. and the fact that we have them, we're just constantly celebrating because, oh man, it took a long time to get here and our people are tired. but they're also invested in the work and they know that the work that they're doing is really great.

Jonathan: 8:37

Yeah, I love that we feel so similarly about accreditation, right? this is discretionary behavior that we're engaging in, right? And what would Dr. Aubrey Daniels tell us? Like there has to be something really motivating about it, and it's not like necessarily higher reimbursement rates. It's not like all these other external rewards. We're not getting to go up and stage or go to the White House or something. there's this more intrinsic benefit to knowing that we're putting our money where our mouth is and we're modeling this for our teams and for our clients. So I could not agree more and I love that y'all are invested in it. But you know, there's also this really hard question. You all have been growing. I mean, you've been around for what, more than a dozen years now, which is extraordinary. and I should say you're based in Maryland, but it's hard to say like to pinpoint Nick. When is the right time to grow? Right? Do you get this tap on the shoulder from someone that's like the sky's open up and you're like, Oh yes, it's right. It's really hard. How do you think about determining the right time? When's the right time?

Nick: 9:30

Yeah. So I think that's a great question and thinking about it you want to say that there's certain variables that need to be in place, but in reality, in this field, a human service field. Employing tons of individuals that have growth trajectories. They want career advancement. they want to move on to new positions, better positions. We have families that need new tools for success. If you want to stay ahead and you want to be able to provide all the resources that everybody that you're going to be contacting with, have contact with. The right time to grow is always, and, that's really what it comes down to because you have a lot of responsibility. You have a lot of responsibility for the people that you employ, and you're responsible for all the clients. And what that means is you have to continually grow to be able to provide those resources. But the caveat to that is to grow responsibly. So that's what's gonna pace you. And you don't want to get ahead of yourself, but you want to make sure that you always have plans to grow. But you want to make sure that you have those key elements in place, like quality assurance teams, right? Core values. You have the necessary culture in place and it's something that you're always working on. Sometimes you start seeing yourself getting ahead of yourself and. That you just have to have good self reflection. And I think one of the key benefits of us having two co CEOs, right? It's just been an amazing opportunity that when we each have ideas for growth, we're naturally a system of checks and balances.

Jonathan: 11:10

as you described that, Nick, one of my favorite quotes came to mind. I think it was Albert Einstein that said something like, if you're not learning, you're dying. And so it's so true, always is the right time to grow. Always is the right time to learn, but it's about pacing yourself and self reflection. there's no way I could have done what I've done without my co CEO and my partner Will, right. Cause it is so freaking lonely at the top, you all know this best, right? It is so lonely. And to be able to have someone else to bounce ideas off of to like punching bag back and forth and let the best idea win is really critical. And one of the things that feels so important to me about thinking about growth, but also just thinking about great organizations. Um, in fact, one of my favorite books of all time I've mentioned on the pod before is Good to Great Jim Collins. and basically he takes these dyads of different organizations that um, in the same industry and in the same time period, one of whom thrived became great. And one of whom kind of withered, right. Or did okay. and he analyzed this across a variety of different industries and he came up with six core principles. So it's really research informed. It's really cool. Um, but the first principle he described was get the right people in the right seats on the bus. And Diana, tell me about how y'all do that at Verbal Beginnings. I know that's super important to you.

Diana: 12:22

Oh, my goodness, I'm so passionate about that. and I think I'm this passionate about it because, over like the 12 years that we've been in business, it's like, you just don't know, who's going to be the right person, but you also don't know what's going to be the right seat as you're scaling and you're growing, you have this concept in mind, um, and you're trying and you're like, okay, conceptually this makes sense, let me put this into action. And then something, something doesn't go right. And that affects your growth and that affects the people there because now they're getting burnout. So now that we're at this more established state, and we have the established seats that we want to fill. we really need to, make sure that we have the right people in the right seats. Those are the people that are going to help us grow the way that we want to grow without burdening the people that are here trying to make a difference, but we're just spinning our wheels. And I gotta say, like right now, oh my gosh, our team is phenomenal. I love them. They are so awesome. Um, each one has, different skill sets, different backgrounds. they've come from, different walks of life, but, They all connect through our mission, through our core values, changing lives, and they work so well together that, it's, they're really an asset to the organization. So definitely right people in the right seats.

Jonathan: 13:53

Right on. it's like one of the most fulfilling things in the world to know that you've got like a team around you and in y'all's case it's like a leadership executive team, that's carrying that mission. that much farther forward than if you all were just brute forcing and pulling all nighters. There's only so many all nighters, there's only so many hours of the week you could actually, pull. But you know, one of the things we are human services organizations, right? And at its heart, that's what makes it extraordinary. running and founding ABA organizations. That's also what makes our jobs so freaking hard. And Nick, I was really fortunate in August at the ABA care staffing summit. I got to see you do a presentation where you did, I mean, you did a bunch of research on generational. on generations. And you also did surveys of your own teams. it was the coolest presentation dude. share some with the listeners share some of the highlights of, uh, of what you presented, what you took away and learned from that.

Nick: 14:50

Yeah, I think it's amazing when we start looking at generations and looking at their impact on the workforce, it was just really fascinating on how times are changing and what we're seeing ahead of us. And I think the biggest change that we're about to see is that we're seeing this Gen Z population starting to enter into the workforce. And we're, we're at the beginning of that. So we really have to understand that if we're going to run successful businesses, how are we going to make that population work? Now, when we look at the past and we look at what were the expectations of millennial generations, we looked at fast growth on an upper trajectory. And. That, that was cool. We built systems around that, that was easy to manage. But when we start seeing those not working, we go back and we evaluate and say, you know, what do we need to do differently? And the coolest thing that we saw was that with this generation, it's about getting ahead professionally. And we see that career growth is, is expected, but to happen fast. But the amazing part about it. Is that we're really working with a generation that's not afraid to shift careers. So I ran into this new thing and the new thing was, right after we had the great resignation, everybody knew about it, but the silent killer that, that came out after that, a lot of people didn't hear about was the great reshuffle. And the great reshuffle is, hey, let's just leave our career. It wasn't about let's leave our job and get the same job somewhere else. It was about shuffling to an entire different career. So when it comes to like what we said with our staff was a strategy around that is leave your career, but not your job. So, so how do you accommodate that? And you do that by building learning opportunities within your organization for new careers as well as paving the way and putting some other lines of service in to allow people to start moving through that. And I think it's really important and it's really indicative of the culture that we're now seeing. And I think learning and growth is becoming one of the most important things within an organization and really defining of what a necessary culture is.

Jonathan: 17:15

What a cool concept of like turning it inward to say like, how do we allow our people to change careers without changing jobs? I think that's a really, that's. That's a powerful and different way of thinking about that. You know, one of the other data points that, that I, I took away from your presentation is like, and you did extensive surveys. Um, but you asked what is a sustainable, income and Gen Z, talked about 175, 000 is what They want to make, right? And a lot of these are like RBT's as Gen Z's, right? They haven't yet maybe gone out, get their Master's in BCBA's, but this is the expectation. 175, 000, which at first just blew my mind. Like,

Nick: 17:52

Yes.

Jonathan: 17:53

wow, I don't think I've ever had, personally, as Jonathan Mueller, an expectation to like make 175, 000 ever in my life. But then I stepped back and you helped me think about this, but I want your insights to it. And what I took away from how you like characterize this was Okay, if someone's not going to make 175, 000, because maybe they realize that's not realistic, it means they will have that much higher of an expectation for their job and how they can be fulfilled from that job and what their advancement opportunities are. Did I get that right? Tell me more.

Nick: 18:23

yeah, yeah, you did. And you're pretty spot on with it. I think one of the things that we're seeing from this generation, the new generation in the workforce, is they've grown up in a time of financial insecurity. Now it's a short period of time, and maybe that's gonna wash out over time, but the expectations are, I need to be financially secure. And when they say, well, look, What do you expect as a starting salary coming out from an undergraduate degree? So the range is, High fifties to eighties, right? And that's very hard to achieve. In reality, what they're seeing is that the, across the board nationally, we're seeing an average of 40, 40, 000, 42, 000. So when we look at it on average, that entire generation that's coming up is really making less than what they want. So what we're seeing, this starts compounding, right? Because this generation then starts looking for second jobs. And then we're now entering this phase where we're seeing a lot more focus on work life balance and mental health. And when you're working two jobs, that starts to get impacted. Now, now the concept though, is that. I can start alleviating some of those stressors. I can start having a better work life balance if I'm making more, because I'm going to have to stop pursuing those second jobs. So that that's where it comes back to career development, career growth. how can I move into a new career that's going to pay me more money now going from. That 50, 000 to that 170, 000 like you're talking about, and just to set the record clear, that was the minimum. So 170, 000 was like, this is what financial security is to me. This is where I need to be. And the level of patience in getting there, right? It's short. I want to be there now, but that number exceeded 200, 000 a year. So that's what this generation is going for. So when they're starting at 40, we're going to see a lot of let's move to the next higher paying job. One, work life balance, financial security, mental health. So at the end of the day, will this be realistic? Maybe, maybe not. it's a long road, but you know, what can we do to create the impression that we're actually starting to move people in that direction? And, and that's what we need to capture with our culture.

Jonathan: 20:41

This is so powerful and this is what I want listeners and particularly leaders in our field and ABA organization founders and owners to, to take away. It's not just poo pooing, haha, that's so unrealistic and don't poo poo an entire generation. It's turn the magnifying glass back on yourself and your organization and figure out this is that next generation of workforce that you need to be successful with and you need to motivate the right ways to accomplish the outcomes you want for your organization. So how do you put that magnifying glass on yourself? And create that kind of career pathing and development and support and work life fit and everything that you just described. That's what it feels like is the key takeaway. Well, I want to transition now to disrupt ABA. I am so pumped to talk about this conference. It's coming up November 11th, 2023. And, uh, it's entirely online hosted on behavior live. So super exciting. And Diana, let's start with you on this. I know, um, you like so many of us, we're so tired of hearing like big organizations aren't thriving, right? We've seen the cards of the world go bankrupt. We've seen, um, all kinds of bigger organizations not be successful or pull out of ABA services or altogether pull out of States, you name it. But then we know small organizations aren't thriving, right? So it's like, ah, there's just been this perpetual beat of hard, bad news last couple of few years. why do you want to disrupt ABA Diana? Like, what's the point?

Diana: 22:03

Um, I'm tired. I'm tired of hearing all this crap, in our field. I just renewed my BACB certificate. I am a BCBA. I am proud to be a BCBA. I went into this field because I know ABA therapy works. It's great. It has meaning. Um, it can change a lot of lives and the current climate is fucking it all up. that's all I can say about it. And um, I'm so sick and tired of ABA organizations spinning their wheels, focusing on the wrong measures, doing the wrong things, screwing clients over, screwing staff over. For what? Like, what are we doing? This field is going south and it's going south quickly. We, we have a duty to this field because it's done so much for us. And I feel like we also have a megaphone through, um, Behavior Live and what we've built with our Verbal Beginnings University. And now's the opportunity to turn that megaphone into microphones and give power to those voices that we stand behind or know that they are disrupting the field and have really cool ideas. And Disrupt ABA is just allowing us not to keep our mouths shut and really, um, help people pivot their thinking about what the field is. So I'm excited. I'm really excited about Disrupt and what's going to happen. Those talks are phenomenal. The people there are amazing. All the speakers are just, I'm so excited for it.

Jonathan: 23:57

Oh, I have goosebumps. that was like a call to arms and ah, men, sister. Um, Nick, I want to highlight the speakers in just a moment, but first, Nick, what do you hope people are going to take away from the conference?

Nick: 24:10

All right. So to what Diana said, we're going to be raising some issues, right? And those issues are going to address a ton of different areas. you're going to have great perspectives on diversity, equity, inclusion. you're going to hear from individuals diagnosed with autism. You're going to get the true meaning and the story behind everything. And exactly what she said, we want people to walk away. From a conference with those things in mind and how they're impacting the field and what we can do about them. But we don't want that conference to end there. the point of this is a catalyst. we want people to walk away as owners saying, all right, it's been addressed, it's been recognized. It's okay to start working on these things now. I'm going to put this into action. But, but this isn't just for owners. This is for clinicians. This is for people who really value their organization. So we want those people to walk away and say, I want to make this change. We want them to talk to their supervisor and say, this is now known, right? We had thousands of people at this conference and they all agree with us. So let's, let's talk about the elephant in the room, but let's have some action points and let's have some people coming out of this ready to make those changes.

Jonathan: 25:28

Yes. Yes. And yes, please. And I just want to highlight, this is a who's, who's extraordinary list of people were talking about really big, bold topics to your point. And I mean, I can't go through all of them, but Dr. Ellie Kazemi has a talk WTF this isn't the career I signed up for. Denisha Gingles is talking about cultural change from within how you create change in the workplace. Um, Dr. Rebecca Larson's talking about the science of big ideas and pushing past adversity and doubt. Manny Rodriguez is there. And, um, I love his title, like reinforcing entitlement in the workplace. Stop. I can just, I can hear it. It's, it's genius. Uh, Mandy Ralston is going to be there about clinical decision support systems and how we leverage technology. Um, I'll be there with Dr. Robbie El Fattal talking about five trends. We'll see. I mean, it's just literally like Holly Beth Klauser is going to talk about talent acquisition. Dr. Tyra Sellers of, APBA is going to be describing weaponizing ethics, what a term, right? Hardcore. And how did it come to this? So anyway, this is literally like a who's who list of topics and bold ideas. And Diana, you once had this extraordinary quote. You said to me, something to the effect, there's, there's opportunity for change. We have to embark on it. I don't know. What do you think, Diana? what does our field look like next year and beyond if disrupt ABA goes well?

Diana: 26:48

Hopefully some of these, organizations around the nation will take these ideas and run with them, and make change. Not be afraid to stand up and, um, and, and show how impactful the change has been. I think we're listening to the wrong people. I mean, payers are pushing us around. people have partners that may not understand the field and they're getting pushed around too. You gotta stay true to our science, stay true to what we started out with, why we're here in the first place. and also look ahead, what's happening, where are we going with this? Value based care is a huge initiative. and when you look at it's going to help us prove that the science of ABA is effective. So the fact that we haven't figured out how to do it yet is like, come on, let's just do it already. And like, let's all jump on the same wagon and just get it done. I know it takes time and we have some really smart people working on it, but, um, yeah, it's just taking forever. But I think also that there's only a few that are actively invested in change and everyone else is kind of just following along. You need to stop following along and just... Be their own voices. Be loud.

Jonathan: 28:10

Be that, and that takes a ton of courage, right? Especially for any of us in the field, this is the hardest work we'll ever do. Whether we're working one on one with the kiddo 40 hours a week or we're BCBAs, you know, supervising a hard, never evolving caseload or organizational leaders, right? Trying to create the kinds of organizations that, um, that we want to live up to. Like that stuff's really hard just as is. And now I, I like again, this call to arms of like, This takes courage, but more voices have to stand up. I, I just have to go through more of the speakers. cause it is literally, this is like the who's, who's list. Nasiah Cirincione-Ulezi is talking about culturally responsive leadership. Megan DeLeon is talking about has ABA or posing the question, has ABA lost its heart again on the social validity of centering autistic Voices. Sarah Litvack of the BHCOE is talking about a field in flux, charting a path forward in ABA. Russell Lehman, who is at this year's Autism Investor Summit, a star from Love on the Spectrum US, um, and is just one of the most compelling. voices and like presentations I've seen in the last few years, um, when ignorance becomes awareness, the dark side of autism, like, ah, there's just, there's so much richness here. I can't even begin to tell you how excited I am for this. November 11th, 2023. You can sign up on behavior live. it is all virtual, so there's no barrier to attending because you got to fly somewhere or drive somewhere. Um, and I promise you it will be action packed. Well, let me ask a hard question, um, of the two of you. What's one thing every ABA business owner should start doing and One thing to stop doing.

Diana: 29:45

this was kind of easy for me to, I do this almost every single day. ABA owners need to stop consulting Facebook for legal advice. I'm not kidding because you know what? Um, they get the answers that are provided are wrong. And what do they do with those answers? They say, thank you so much. I'll try it. You're screwing yourself over. Don't do it.

Jonathan: 30:17

well said. Maybe discerning between when you're asking for advice that's just advice. Cool. Versus like when this has true legal implications, that's like a skill set in and of itself. So true.

Diana: 30:27

I don't think they understand the difference. Um, Nick, what should they do?

Nick: 30:31

Yes. So, so this is very simple. Hire an accountant and hire an attorney and you'll be in good hands. Ask them all the questions. It's reasonable. Sometimes it's expensive, right? But the return on investment, it's a lot cheaper to pay an attorney than it is to make a mistake. You'll be happy at the end.

Jonathan: 30:52

Well said. I like that. It's sort of this recognition that there are the same way that there are highly, um, trained specialists. BCBAs and RBTs and BCBADs doing the work we do. There are highly trained specialists who focus on things like accounting and legal work and all of that. So, um, uh, amen Brother. All right. Well, where can people find y'all and Disrupt ABA online?

Diana: 31:20

So, um, we both have LinkedIn profiles and we love followers. So hopefully, um, people will start following us and liking us and whoever does, I'll like them back. Cause I, I love that. I want to see where people are coming from, um, to see if we have shared interests, and disrupt, disrupt ABA is on behavior live, um, website is behaviorlive.com/disruptaba

Jonathan: 31:49

awesome. And I'll drop links to your LinkedIn profiles, Disrupt ABA and to Verbal Beginnings in the show notes. All right, y'all, are you ready for the hot take rapid fire questions?

Nick: 31:59

Let's do it.

Jonathan: 32:00

All right. Let's uh, for each one of these, Nick, I'm going to have you answer first and then Diana, you get to follow up. So here we go. You're on your deathbed. What's the one thing you want to be remembered for?

Nick: 32:12

Very easy. Being a good father. Family first. It's the most important part of everything you do in life.

Jonathan: 32:25

How about you, Diana?

Diana: 32:27

Oh, um, that's a really good one. I think I'm definitely going to be remembered for that already. So, from a professional standpoint, I just. I love impacting, people and helping them find their passions and helping them succeed in finding them and then just being happy in what they do. Um, I've seen it happen time and time again at Verbal Beginnings and that just makes me so happy. So at the end of the day, if I help people succeed to do what they love to do, um, think I'm, I'm good.

Jonathan: 33:06

Rock on. What's your most important self care practice, Nick?

Nick: 33:11

The only time I really find that I can put my phone away. Forget about work, put it all aside, is when I'm out doing something with the kids, and it's amazing. If you're on a soccer field, that's three hours away from your phone, right? You're watching a movie with your daughter, that's two hours away from you. And you're away from your phone because you're not thinking about work. You're thinking about family. And Those opportunities are just amazing, and I don't think that it gets any better than that.

Jonathan: 33:45

Diana?

Diana: 33:48

Mine's similar. Um, but I like to travel, um, to, you know, put everything aside and just go away because yes, you need that distraction. So you're not like pulled back. and we've had some really cool family trips. Uh, we just recently, over the summer we did a Mediterranean cruise. Um, so we hit up a lot of countries, like Spain and Italy, France, it was amazing. And the kids arrived, like, they actually really enjoyed it, um, and that was really cool, like, sharing those moments and memories with them. Um, during COVID we would go away, we camp all the time, we have a trailer and we take it out and just go in the, in the parks and, and camp and they love that, and I love that. There's no cell service. I love it even more. Um, it's really like that self care. I come back and I'm like, all right, I'm rested, ready to go.

Jonathan: 34:44

Nice. All right, Nick. Favorite song and or music genre?

Nick: 34:49

Okay, very easy. So, for me, it's gonna be Disagreement for many, but I really love the the band Live, the song Lightning Crashes, right? So that fits right in there with my favorite genre. of alternative music. I think the coolest thing that happened was I was at a concert and um, live was playing and this was right outside of Cleveland, Ohio. And they start up that song, Lightning Crashes. The second they start it up, lightning shoots out of the sky, right? Boom, thunderstorm. Outdoor concert, you think they call it. Everybody going for safety, no, just crowds wild. It was like the pinnacle of having a favorite song. It was very cool.

Jonathan: 35:33

Oh, that is so uber classic 90s. Ah, and it's like, if y'all haven't read the lyrics, listeners, to, to Lightning Crashes, it's pretty intense. it's, it's good. It's deep. I love

Nick: 35:45

Yeah.

Jonathan: 35:46

Diana, how about you?

Diana: 35:49

Oh, I'm a sucker for 80s music. Um, and my kids really like it too. Um, we actually have like laundry folding parties where we'll just like fold laundry and like, have dance parties to the music, so it's cool. they really enjoy it, so they must have really good taste in music.

Jonathan: 36:11

All right, well, you know what my very first cassette tape was? I don't know if people know what cassette tapes are anymore. Uh, the soundtrack to Footloose. Oh, I can still picture it was like a white cassette, but with like, orange and the A side and the B side. Oh, it's so good. Um, go watch that movie, Footloose, if you haven't seen it. Haha,

Diana: 36:32

They did a remake too.

Jonathan: 36:34

What?

Diana: 36:35

Yeah. Oh, the remake's old.

Jonathan: 36:38

Wait, stop it. Like, Kevin Bacon, Footloose? They did a remake?

Diana: 36:42

No, they um, I think they casted someone else, but I'm pretty sure, right? I don't know. Am I, was I dreaming?

Jonathan: 36:50

think you're probably right. I think I just haven't seen it, but that is bold. And I got to go back and see, well, hey, if they can get Top Gun, Maverick, right. Right. Like after all those years, then, uh, I believe it for others. what's one thing you'd tell your 18 year old self?

Nick: 37:05

Oh, my 18 year old self is... Pursue happiness, set aside expectations and what other people want. Think about what's going to make you happy and move in that direction. And if you start that early on, you're going to be on a good path in life.

Jonathan: 37:26

Nice. Diana.

Diana: 37:29

You know, I thought of this one and you know how you watch movies where if you like go back in time and then Um, you know, do anything to the past. It creates like this alternative universe and then you're going on this different path. So I don't want to tell anything to my 18 year old self because, um, I don't want to change how My life has happened. I love this. I love what I do. My family is awesome. Um, I, I don't want to disrupt anything except the field of ABA.

Jonathan: 38:06

That's, that's like, that's such a mature way to think about it. There's a great Stephen King book that actually talks about the Kennedy assassination. 1122 63 I think is the title. No spoilers, um, but it's all about how do you go and like, change the past? And what happens when you do change the past? and Diana you are absolutely right. There was a Footloose remake, um, in 2011. 12 years ago, about the same time that Verbal Beginnings got started. So you are so right.

Diana: 38:33

knew it.

Jonathan: 38:34

Oh, oh, wow. Now I feel like really crazy. And it got, uh, looks like it got a 68 percent on Rotten Tomatoes. So, um, all right. That, that, that's worth a flyer. I'll take a flyer on that. Um, all right. Final question, Nick. You can only wear one style of footwear. What would it be?

Nick: 38:49

Oh, it's, it's simple. Adidas shoes, the most comfortable shoes in the world. you get the white ones. They look fancy. You wear them with a business suit, right? Never got to take them off.

Jonathan: 39:02

Ah, I love it. Didn't Run DMC have Adidas shoes? Like wasn't, didn't they make those big back in the eighties? Maybe I'm not thinking about it,

Nick: 39:09

You know, I I'm new to the Adidas market and I kind of regret that. And you know, maybe that's one of those things that I should have told my 18 year old self is like, look, you got to start buying Adidas. Thank you.

Jonathan: 39:21

absolutely. How about you Diana?

Diana: 39:24

Um, heels all the way. I find myself being One of the shortest people when I go to conferences and, uh, uh, just at work. And I'm like, no, I'm going to wear heels. I'm going to try to be as tall as possible. Um, cause I feel tall. I just, you know, after I take like a group picture, I'm like, wait, is that me? So definitely like nice, a nice pair of heels goes a long way.

Jonathan: 39:51

Nice. Well, hey, Nick and Diana, thank you so much for coming on the pod. This has been an absolute joy and I can't wait to see y'all at Disrupt ABA.

Diana: 40:00

Thanks, Jonathan. This is fun.

Nick: 40:02

Yeah, it's been amazing. We appreciate the time.