Episode 86: Using a Balanced Scorecard to Build Operational Excellence and Clinical Quality with Dr. Gina Chang

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Transcript

Jonathan: 0:30

My guest today is Dr. Gina Chang. Gina is a BCBAD and licensed psychologist and the CEO of Autism Learning Partners. She started her career as a behavior technician 22 years ago and was captivated by the science of ABA and seeing children and family's lives forever improved by the science. She's on a journey to ensure excellence and access to care for more and more families. Gina, welcome to the pod.

Dr. Gina Chang: 0:55

Thank you. Thank you for having me, Jonathan.

Jonathan: 0:57

Oh, it's so great to be here with you. Well, tell me, I mean, 22 years in the field, so you are like old school. Um, you've been with, You've been with ALP since 2015, I think. But when was the moment, Gina, that you realized you wanted to make ABA your career?

Dr. Gina Chang: 1:13

I didn't, I didn't actually know anything about ABA. In college, I was a history and English major and, really left college, uh, not having any idea what to do with my life. I think my parents were very nervous about me. I'd always loved working with children. Um, I'd actually thought I was going to be a pediatrician organic chem ensured that didn't work out for me. and, yeah. And so a friend said she was a psych major and she said, well, I'm, I'm going to be working with, autistic kids. And I literally thought at first she said, artistic kids. I really didn't know about this population, but sure enough. I needed a part time job and they said well We'll hire you for you know,$13 an hour. And if you do a good job, we'll sort of do it on a trial period. And I don't know there was just something about as I went through training and learned about the science It made just a lot of intuitive sense. I think there were things that just resonated and then I still remember walking up to the door, because it was all in home, of my first client, and, I don't know, like, I literally, I can picture it in my mind, knocking on the apartment door and going in, and he and his family just changed my life in so many ways, because I think, you know, I think I'd always wanted to be of sort of service and mission oriented work was really important to me, but I think that combination of then watching change happen in front of you, so seeing words come out for the first time or things that had really been hard for a family. you know, being able to go to Target and him not throw a tantrum because he didn't get access to a preferred item. I mean... I watched the family's life change and things that were so painful become joyful. And I think for me that combination of, the scientific part, but then also the actual change in a family's life part, was just something that I hadn't experienced before in any other sort of, Part of the world that I'd been dabbling in from a educational career perspective. So yeah, I mean it was that moment that I was just like how do I do this? And how do I do more of it? And how do I become a supervisor? So,

Jonathan: 3:27

I love that. Gosh, the things that were so painful become joyful. I think that speaks to the power of our science and our treatment, right? And what we, and the life changing impacts we make on families. part of what's so interesting to me about your story, you are a classic, from mailroom to boardroom, a kind of journey. And I want to hear more about your journey to becoming Autism Learning Partners CEO and ALP for those who don't know, is one of the largest ABA providers in the country. Tell me more about that.

Dr. Gina Chang: 3:53

Gosh, not, not something that felt very intentional if I'm honest back when I was a behavior technician, it became about how do I become a supervisor because I got married young. We had very little money. And it was like, okay, well, if I can make, you know,$28 an hour or whatever they were paying the supervisor at the time, then that meant my husband and I could afford to live in Southern California. but then also just amazing doors were opened it's always a bit of, You know, luck, hard work, right? That combination. So I needed to get a master's to become a supervisor. And, because I had been a history and English major, no state school would take me if I didn't redo my undergrad coursework. I had to get a certain number of psych units to be able to go to Cal State LA, Cal State Northridge. Right? Great programs around me. and I, that felt unfathomable. And then, I was interviewed with, Claremont graduate that had a developmental psych program, but not really a BCBA program. And they said I could come in and sort of do that coursework as a part of my program. They would waive that requirement. But then I got connected to a woman who was doing research in ABA at Claremont McKenna, Dr. Charlotte. And I went to go meet with her. And she just said, I don't take master's students, I only take PhD students. I was like, oh crap, go home. I like, retake the GRE that I had not done well on. change my application. She took one student that year. And it was me. And to this day, I don't know... how that worked. but it really changed the course of my journey because now not only was I on path to get my master's, which was important to get the the 28 an hour that I needed, but it just allowed me to dive fully into the space. I mean, and then I, able to get my PhD, which really was not in the cards, earlier, like that would not have been, um, Um, but I loved it. I actually really enjoyed the research. and then I was able to do pre doc hours with her so I could get my license, which also wasn't really that wasn't in the cards necessarily. Again, I was just trying to be the supervisor. so no, I think that, that was certainly just a massive door that got opened that, to this day, I'm. So grateful for. and then I think I just, I really fell in love with operations, which I think not necessarily all clinicians are really into, but, I spent, uh, almost a decade at it at Autism Spectrum Therapies, which was acquired by Learn just before I left. but there I really learned, I think a few things like one, just operations have to be tight. To do what we do, especially in home, right? I mean, it is literally like UPS meets clinical care. I what you're trying to accomplish. So I think that work, and really, a woman named Dr. Andrea Ridgway was both incredibly instrumental for me, both in operations and in clinical development. she taught me so much about what I understand about clinical care I did a lot of work with brief functional analyses when I was there, but then also opened up services for areas of California that didn't really have great access to care and loved that. Like loved the idea that I was going to build infrastructure around training and access that hadn't existed. That really was a spark for me, in that time. Those 10 years were really big for me as far as things that I'm deeply passionate about.

Jonathan: 7:17

Is that so crazy how X post factor looking back, it can feel like everything like fell into place to make it happen. But like the reality of so many of our journeys, it's wow, this little moment changed where the trajectory went, but you know, I want to probe more on, on operations and you cannot be more correct Gina that, particularly for in home, but for any type of ABA services. If you don't have the tightest operations,

Dr. Gina Chang: 7:41

Yeah.

Jonathan: 7:41

you cannot be successful. And especially in this time of compressed margins and increasing wage rates. And, we've known each other for, I think almost a couple of years now, but when we chatted at the Casp CEO event, I was just blown away for how you brought this operational mindset just to describe the work that, that you do and ALP was doing, but that doesn't get taught in schools. Doesn't even get taught really in an MBA program. So how did you build your really keen operational skill sets and the mindsets that you knew you needed to be a successful leader?

Dr. Gina Chang: 8:11

Yeah. Um. Man, and it is, it's, it's the same thing where you just have different people come into your life at sort of different key moments. So again, I think Dr. Ridgeway was like, I think what was so clear in our work together was you have to manage the relationship between your sort of supervisor costs and your behavior technician costs one piece of advice I would give to anybody, it's that relationship and the caseload dynamics that will, from my perspective, with how we are paid today, right, the context you're in, is really drives the ability to build sustainable businesses. So I think that was probably a big nugget of truth I had that I took when I came in as Chief of Clinical Operations at ALP. But, I would say the next big piece was I worked then really closely with the CEO that brought me in to ALP, who was just really great one of the first things we did was put in place a balanced scorecard. And so for us that has, you know, a people column, an operations column, a clinical quality column, and a growth column. So those for us, at the time, again, all your context, right? At the time I was landing at ALP, the business was in not a good spot, we needed, some real growth to balance overhead costs, and we needed to really root the team in clinical excellence and operational excellence. And so that scorecard, was so critical to that. And then it was just every month, I mean, that, routinized focus on execution. and they were tough conversations, so you know, you don't transform a business by all good stuff, right? There's going to be hard moments where there are honest conversations about where the performance of the business is going, and I think that, those things for me were so instrumental, in what has become, a toolkit that I really depend on in how we lead the business.

Jonathan: 10:07

Hmm. Tell me some more about, the balanced scorecard is this concept that's been around, I think for at least a couple of decades, right? But it's much newer to our field. I want you to tell me a little bit more about that. And also, this idea that the importance of managing that relationship between your supervisor costs and your frontline workers and what, what does that actually look like day to day? 60

Dr. Gina Chang: 10:27

So I think as far as the balanced scorecard, I think for us it set the tone for a monthly review of the business at the regional level. So I mean, I'd say that's a big part of it. Um, but you're right. That other question you asked, Those metrics all float onto the balanced scorecard. So, just to dive more into that, what we really focus on I mean, we call it gross margin, other people will call it lots of different things, but it's really how, you know, you can look at a BCBA's product call it productivity, hours they bill, care they provide, all of that good vernacular. But honestly, that, for most of us, given the landscape of the reimbursement rate, because, at least in our organization, they're typically only about 60 70 percent billable, right? So, there are other things they do, um, that depending on how you're being reimbursed, that's the level of Productivity or reimbursed time we get from them and because of that typically what they're doing is really paying for their costs they're not generating anything that Supports the rest of the functioning of the business If you were to have that position say bill at 90 95 percent time, so If there is someone out there getting 35, 37 hours out of productivity a week out of their BCBAs, God bless you, we are not, then that probably could work as far as that being your focus. but for us, because that isn't, we give them time for other things, most of the margin of the business is made off of the behavior technician hour. Um, in this season, that's obviously been, compressed a lot. And so there's, you know, work we're doing there. but that for us has been sort of that understanding. So we want to pay our behavior technicians well. And so in order to do that, you have to really watch how many behavior technician hours you can have per BCBA. That relationship becomes more and more important in being sustainable. I think in a world where we could imagine really great reimbursement rates, then that can be less, like someone, actually a guy at AST, Rob Haut, once said to me, when the, when the tide is high, you don't know how much shit is at the bottom of the ocean. and I think that's just really true, right? I think about that statement a lot, like when, you know, those of us, and I wasn't in operations at this time, but I mean, there was a day when we were regularly being paid 90, 100 bucks an hour. For BT work, right? That's not the world we live in. This is not going back, 15 years, 20 years. And so yeah, then I think you can do all sorts of things, right? Your BCBAs don't have to bill, it doesn't matter what the caseload looks like. you can have a lot of fun. Um, but that's, that's not our reality. And if people have the same sort of reimbursement profile that we do, which I think is not the lowest, but not the greatest, you have to watch those. To be able to then provide other really amazing things to your team members, to your families, right? To afford, um, the technology you need. To afford, somebody else to do your scheduling, and contracting, and credentialing all those things that no clinician wants to do. you've gotta watch those dynamics to have the resources left over to invest in those things.

Jonathan: 13:50

This is so true. from when we started Ascend five and a half, six years ago, we said the same thing. Like the true measures of productivity around caseload size defined specifically as the number of direct therapy hours in this pyramid. under a BCBA. and so I, I love that, your mind works that way. And like we're a human services business, right? we don't make widgets. So unlike a UPS or some of these others where we could like

Dr. Gina Chang: 14:12

tweak some levers I know,

Jonathan: 14:13

levers and so this is the, I believe, hardest thing. That organizations have to do to be successful, even harder than like the hard clinical delivery of treatment. So what feedback do you have for ABA providers when it comes to increasing utilization and just making sure the providers are working as efficiently and effectively as possible and in a supportive environment?

Dr. Gina Chang: 14:34

Yeah. Um. Look, first, I'm not gonna lie, like, I think it's really hard. You know, I think for us, and I don't know that we do it well, or always do it well, but I think it's been about, Also, just, Just trying to be as transparent about this reality. I actually read this great Simon Sinek quote that said like transparency isn't telling everybody all the details, but it's telling them sort of why the context for why the decision is being made. And I think that, you know, there is feedback I would give is I just, I think giving your team levels of transparency. I actually think. A lot of humans, if they had the same information you had, would actually make a lot of the same decisions. It's, it's not that people, like most of the supervisors we have, or when I talk to them, they get it. do we always do a good job of making sure they understand the why? And that includes the financial why. You know, I think sometimes those of us who are clinicians, would much rather talk about our why clinically and, um, the amazing clinical work and we do a lot of that, but it's also about explaining the financial component or making sure they understand how the business works. And so that was a part of that scorecard. That was a lot of what we were doing month over month was actually equipping the director so that they could communicate with their supervisors like, this is how the business works. It's not like we need you to build 25 hours just, or 27 hours just to do it. yes, that maps onto clinical care, right? If you're doing the 10 to 20 percent, I mean, it lines up. But we do monitor it also because that supports the sustainability of the business. and that, that is our reality. And let me then walk you through that, you know? So I think for me it's, I would say it's trying to bring people along. with understanding the business and not trying to hide that from them. I do think sometimes as clinicians, we don't want our BCBAs to have to get caught up in that stuff, right? Or we, we don't want to feel like they need to worry themselves and they shouldn't, but I do think if they don't know the why behind the full story. You know, you can share the clinical, but the full story of the why, I think we do ourselves a disservice in, in their willingness to come along. but again, I don't know that we always do that well, but that's our intent.

Jonathan: 16:57

But you've pointed something really critical. and I think I had a mentor tell me once, this is the hard leadership work that we get to do. That is the teaching. Not like just telling a clinician, one of our team members, this is what you do, but like, give them that context, teach them the why. Being a teacher to help them understand, how certain decisions have to be made. this is so critical. Why do you think as a field that, we've shied away from that? Is it because we haven't wanted to expose, clinicians to the, harder financial realities, right? Or, what drives that?

Dr. Gina Chang: 17:28

I don't know. I know my own journey, you know, and I know that even for me at times, like, I have my own struggles with overextending myself to care for people, right, whether that's in my personal life or in my work life, I will give a lot to, to do right by somebody, to get it right, right? And I think sometimes that can sort of overgeneralize to like financials and budgets And I don't doubt that there are amazing clinicians running businesses today that are either running at a loss or bleeding their personal finances because they are trying to do right, and because they will give of themselves to that. And I think, you know, that, that whole notion of boundaries allow you to Give appropriately. I actually think that's true, in sort of your own emotional and cognitive and sort of psychological development. And it's sort of true financially. to me that almost feels like a bit of a universal truth. And I think that's been my own journey it's actually really appropriate to not Give outside of what is sustainable so that you can keep giving and you can keep doing it. and so I, think sometimes, you know, we feel badly saying, no, we're not going to do that. You know, because you could say it's in, best interest of client care. It's the best interest of the staff, so I think then we try, but it's like, no, we just, we have to live. within the reality and give the right feedback loop. I think sometimes we almost absorb, like we get squeezed rather than no, payers need to pay us more for this work. I mean, I think I've been, it's been really hard, we've made some tough decisions to leave markets and I never will do that flippantly, but at the same time, how do you send a message? To a payer or to a state that doesn't want to fund services. When you just keep taking. When you just make yourself, your team members squeeze because they won't show up. I just, I don't know. And so it's painful because obviously then there's a client or a patient but I do feel strongly that we've got to figure out a feedback loop that puts the accountability on. payers and states to show up for these patients, not just on the provider being squeezed in the middle.

Jonathan: 19:53

it's so brilliantly said, you know, the universal truth I'm hearing quality costs more, right? and if payers and states are willing to put up with a low reimbursement rate, then like, what are they going to get? You're going to get services provided essentially by like staffing agencies, right? And just. Sort of like home health care, but you send someone in and not trained and not well supervised quality costs more full stop. You know, one of the things I think I've always been reluctant in my 11 years in the field, I'm not a clinician. And so when I approach these kinds of conversations about, utilization and productivity and margins, like this worry in the back of my head is shoot, like, They're just going to see me as this MBA that only wants like to make money. And so I've had to over index and a lot of times like way too over index on not having those conversations, which taken me away from that. but I love this sense of like, Hey, we can't overgive, right. quality costs more and we need to be upfront and transparent with our team members about the dynamics of our business. Like they deserve that. one of the things you and I really agree on, um, well, I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Dr. Gina Chang: 20:57

No, go

Jonathan: 20:57

is like, there's this debate in our field these days about like private equity versus non private. I don't know. I, I think it's sad and, and at best, it's just distracting, but at worst, it's actually dangerously destructive and I love you told me at one point, Gina, like that it's. It's about the choices you make and how you run the business. Like, that's what counts. Can you tell me more, like, what you mean by that?

Dr. Gina Chang: 21:20

sure. Um, yeah, and I, again, right, you, you only can speak from the context you've, like, lived, right? so, when I joined ALP, there was another private equity firm. that held the organization. and then there was a transfer of ownership. and then the current team I've been with since 2018. So for, I know them very well. and I, I stepped into the CEO role in 20. So, so really have gone through the journey of COVID and all of it. Right. The great resignation. so I've, I've walked with these, humans through just really tough times. And I think. for me and my experience is that they are looking for as much expertise and leadership from the management team, um, more than anything. So my experience has been them being highly supportive of decisions and approaches but also requiring. a level of transparency with them, right? So, in the same way I need to be transparent with my supervisors to bring them along, it's required transparency with them to bring them along. And sometimes that means hard conversations with them about, no, you can't just do that. You don't, you don't understand what we do. but then also trust, right? I'm a big believer that when we talk about integrity or trust, it's all about say do. Like, you say something, then you do it. And I think on both sides, you have to demonstrate that. And so I think they've seen us say what we think needs to be done, do it, and then see the right result. Right? Whether that's improved retention. I mean, it's not always just financial, but it is also that. Um, and so... So, I think from my perspective, I have been really respected when I've, sort of when I've disagreed. Um, and, and yet also, have really appreciated you know, there are some things they see differently They were some of the first people that, when COVID hit, were like, how do we make sure BCBAs don't get hit by this? so it is, it is hard for me to see the, a lot of the commentary or the perception because I just think it's really misguided in the sense of, are there chances that there are some PE firms that are driving poor business practices from a clinical perspective? I'm sure there are. But in the same, as we've discussed, in the same light, have I seen really poor ethical and clinical practices by privately owned, clinician owned entities, 100%. And so I think for me it's, just not about the funding mechanism, or financing mechanism. It is about, the choices you're making every day around your business. And, all of us, whether you're not for profit, private equity backed, or, um, an individual owner, you still need to run your business at, a reasonable level of sustainability, no matter how you cut it, and at least my experience is I'm not being asked to run that at, at anything. Beyond just what is appropriate to the reimbursement rates we're getting and the cost to deliver the care, and that we're not going the wrong way, so I'm probably oversimplifying it a little bit, but I think from my perspective, I'm not really sure who we're referencing when we try to make it so, binary or polarizing.

Jonathan: 24:42

Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. And I think one of the ways that this plays out, I could be totally wrong on this, but let me throw it out there. And I love your feedback. One of the ways this plays out is, um, you know, our field still operates, with the mentality and mindset of cool. We're in the medical model when it comes to reimbursement. But we don't have to be in the medical model when it comes to compliance and all of the other things that every other health care organization and every other health care discipline has to do. So it's like, we're trying to have our cake and eat it too. And, you know, there's going to be an office of inspector general report that comes out later in 2023 where they just went and did an audit of all state Medicaid, ABA programs. And I think that's going to be a come to Jesus moment for our field. But, but this idea that, we've been under indexing under investing as a field on compliance that, that. Everywhere else in healthcare, you know, those investments have to be made. And, I do believe that realization, um, that we can't have our cake and eat it too, is going to lead to more consolidation. It's going to lead to those organizations that have invested over time in compliance, and everything from billing and revenue cycle compliance to clinical compliance to, I mean, you know, HIPAA compliance, you name it, right? The entire compliance infrastructure. Those are the ones who are going to make it through this next leg. and so I think that's one thing I, one thing I've learned about private equity, they're actually super conservative, right? Cause you're dealing with investors money. You're talking California pension funds and elsewhere. So there's super conservative and, and that conservatism translates to dialed in compliance infrastructure. But I don't know, what do you think is a future of compliance in our field? And is there going to be a come to Jesus moment for ABA providers?

Dr. Gina Chang: 26:16

You know, it's, it's so interesting, right? This is one of those moments where, like, again, I feel like I keep saying this, but I, feel like I know my world. Right? but you're right, right? One of the first things, when, our private equity team came in was like, we have compliance, monthly calls we have, I mean, so I definitely think that is of absolute value for them. And also I think pushing us forward around outcomes, and, data development, right? obviously we've, always taken data on the patients we're providing care for and, but, they understand what technology can also do in a way that, as a clinician, that's not my natural kind of wheelhouse, right, but we're in the process, we've built a data warehouse, we're in the process of, Refreshing that warehouse, but I just think that to me is also what they bring, but you're right, 100%. So on the compliance side, but then also just how levels of accountability are going to change. So yes, we do spend a lot of time on that I will be honest when I hear that there's still providers that don't necessarily take. Data in every session, or, I mean that, that does kind of blow my mind, but that, for me, has been an expectation, for a long time. I mean, in California we, we were being audited a lot, even at my prior company. So, yeah, we have to be accountable for what we do. And, I, I think that reckoning is still, they're still struggling with access. And I think we have not yet dealt with the reckoning of the quality of the care being provided.

Jonathan: 27:45

It's a good point. Like there's, you know, we exist in our environment, right? And clearly with a 1 in 36 diagnosing rate that just came out from the CDC in April. there's still true access issues that haven't been solved. And that I think has been part of what the context of what's pushed the can down the road on, on compliance. But, um, But yeah, you know, there's a, um, I, I feel like, um, all of this comes back around to doing these things is for the sake of our kiddos. Right. And then, yeah, it happens to be good business practices. It happens to be sound financial discipline, but it's for, it's for the sake of our kids and those we serve. Well, do you know, what's one thing every ABA business owner should start doing? And One thing to stop doing

Dr. Gina Chang: 28:26

I do think really, being transparent about what it means to run this business I don't think that means you have to give, Like, all the little details, but I, I do think having folks understand, I really think you will bring a lot of people with you if they understand the journey that you're on and what you're trying to accomplish and what, what that would then also give access to if they helped you accomplish it, the only other thing I'd say too is I also think that invites, they might have a better way of solving it. I mean, I just think a more creative way of solving it than, you know, I think I've talked to some other CEOs or in my journey where it seems like they'll lock in like, well, you know, this is what it has to be. and sometimes that's not true. If you were just talking to more of the people and letting them know what the problem was. that is just a way that I lead that I think is really critical to this, and especially in this season. Um, and then what should they stop doing? I just think we should stop feeling badly that we're trying to build sustainable businesses. I mean, maybe that's just more me, but I I think we want to take care of everyone all the time, and I don't think that's possible. And I think it's okay to draw limits of what you can and can't do. And it's okay if that limit isn't losing money, but that limit is like, I can, appropriately pay the interest on my debt or whatever. I mean, I just think, you know, it doesn't have to come at personal cost to you.

Jonathan: 29:59

beautifully said, well, where can people find you online? Gina

Dr. Gina Chang: 30:03

Um, gosh, I'm not actually great online, but LinkedIn, I'm definitely on LinkedIn, um, you know, our website, autismlearningpartners. com, those are probably the two best places.

Jonathan: 30:14

Rock on, well, are you ready for the hot take questions?

Dr. Gina Chang: 30:17

I, yes, yes. Okay. Okay, so

Jonathan: 30:19

Here we go. Buckle up. All right. You know, you're on your deathbed. What's the one thing you want to be remembered for

Dr. Gina Chang: 30:24

Brene Brown, has this quote, strong back, soft front, wild heart, and that is it.

Jonathan: 30:31

strong back, soft front wild heart,

Dr. Gina Chang: 30:35

Yes.

Jonathan: 30:35

well, as a fellow Brene. Brown, Devote. love that. There's also like a mullet context somewhere in there. Strong and like long

Dr. Gina Chang: 30:43

Oh, dear

Jonathan: 30:45

know. That's what they came to buy. This is like the 21st century mullet. That's beautiful. I love it. What's your most important self care practice, Chita?

Dr. Gina Chang: 30:52

Um, I would say walking and like, meditation and prayer. Are those, are those for me?

Jonathan: 30:58

What's your favorite song and or music genre?

Dr. Gina Chang: 31:03

I feel like this will just reveal my age. One by U2. I mean, there are quite a few U2 songs that would make the top list, but one, one is probably up there.

Jonathan: 31:11

They're, they're absolute genius. I got to ask you, I put you on the spot. I know you've got kids. Have you seen the movie Sing 2?

Dr. Gina Chang: 31:18

Yes! Yes!

Jonathan: 31:20

Where, and no spoilers for the audience, but if you haven't seen it, just go freaking watch, it doesn't matter if you've seen Sing 1, Bono plays, there's an animal I should say, where Bono plays the voice, it's a lion and it is just, I was like in goosebumps and tears through most of the movie

Dr. Gina Chang: 31:35

Yes.

Jonathan: 31:37

like listening to all this stuff that I grew up with. It was so good.

Dr. Gina Chang: 31:40

Yes. Yes. So great.

Jonathan: 31:42

You know, what's the one thing you'd tell your 18 year old self?

Dr. Gina Chang: 31:45

Oh, don't be so afraid.

Jonathan: 31:50

Well, you can only wear one style of footwear. What would it be?

Dr. Gina Chang: 31:53

Running shoes. Only because I really love walking.

Jonathan: 31:55

So highly functional. Well, Gina, thank you so much for coming on the pod. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and all your experience. I appreciate you.

Dr. Gina Chang: 32:02

Oh, appreciate it. Thanks, Jonathan.