Episode 84: How to Achieve a client NPS Score of 85 with Dr. Callie Plattner of Mosaic Pediatric Therapy

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Transcript

Jonathan: 0:30

My guest today is Dr. Callie Plattner. Callie's been a lover of learning in all things behavior analysis since she started working in group homes when she was 18. She's been a BCBA for 15 years and is the VP of Clinical operations for Mosaic Pediatric Therapy, a clinic-based ABA provider, North Carolina, Virginia, and Tennessee, with over a hundred BCBAs in 25 clinics. She served as two-time past president of NCABA, serving the board of directors for APBA. And as a subject matter expert for the BACB and CASP, and Callie is a published author of book chapters and research related to parent experience, staff training, and how the two intersect. Callie, welcome to the pod. And is there anything you don't do, dude?

Callie: 1:11

Hey, Jonathan. Um, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. And also really grateful for all of those amazing experiences that I've had so far.

Jonathan: 1:21

I love the gratitude. You know, Callie, you and I got to meet, uh, we were both on a panel that was moderated by Dr. Linda LeBlanc. And I got to tell you, you know, Linda's been a mentor of mine for, for like, The 11 years I've been in the field and I'm such a fanboy. It's so intimidating have to follow her after that. And I was just appreciative that you went first before me on that. It is,

Callie: 1:42

it's a nerve wracking. And when Linda tells you to do something, you do it. And the whole time I was hoping that I did exactly what she was hoping we would do. It was, it was a fun time together.

Jonathan: 1:53

You did, and you so wonderfully represented, uh, Mosaic and, I mean, all the topics we're going to dive into, that are so relevant, today in our field. Let's start though with like, what does compassionate care mean to you?

Callie: 2:07

Yeah, definitely a hot topic in our field right now, seems like we are all talking about it and still very much at the beginning stages of figuring out what compassionate care means, uh, how we train those skills and the impact that it might have on those that we're working with. what I do think we can probably all agree on at this point is that compassionate care is really important and, and deserves our focus. I'm glad we're chatting about it. When I think about compassionate care, I most often start to reflect on some of my own past mistakes, and there are many. I also think about all the ways that I've grown as a professional, and hopefully for the better. at this point in my career, I have a lot of experiences with what is and what isn't good compassionate care, solely based on my own mistakes and, hopefully some of my wins. I'm sure that when we all kind of reflect back and think about those relationships where we either rushed the conversation, um, didn't give the person the thoughtfulness, the attention that they deserved, maybe attempted to problem solve without really taking the time to listen and understand what they've been going through. and when I remember doing that, I would categorize those times as all mistakes that I've made. Ultimately, I think compassionate care is It's more about us really showing up as our authentic self and just giving other people the time and chance to do the same. it's so very critical to give everybody, that we encounter just that. That's the grace to make mistakes and be human, and I think we also need to get real comfortable offering up our own apologies when we make an error. So when I think about compassionate care, I'm oftentimes thinking about it in terms of how I'm connecting with our clients, the families we serve, my colleagues. And when I think about the right way to do it, I'm thinking in terms of giving other people just the opportunity to be seen and be heard. And I think that in and of itself can just make such a huge impact. It probably sounds really simple, but, it isn't or at least I will say it was not for me as a 24 year old first year BCBA. Uh, I can recall. Unfortunately, the way that I first viewed interventions, and I'm not sure if the same was true for you and others, but the way I first viewed interventions, just the frustration I felt when they weren't implemented with fidelity or even at all by caregivers and staff, I rarely thought that it was a me thing. I always seem to think it was a them thing without, um, Really considering their needs and what was going to work for them. Of course, that was the wrong approach I was taking. but I think those early career BCBAs and certainly for me back then, I was so focused on, perfecting my selection of treatment recommendations and protocols, uh, and making sure that they were within like the most complex conceptual framework, possible really without taking all the time for family needs, their abilities, their preferences, and really considering all of those things when I was programming. Quite, quite frankly, Jonathan, I think I was like on this behavior analytic high horse and, and rarely came down, to figure out the, the right way to be doing things. So, I don't know, looking back on it during those early years, I think I was, an example of what not to do. And my hope is with this focus on compassionate care. It's really going to help our early career clinicians avoid many of those same mistakes that I made. And I'm certainly grateful for the families, my co workers, my supervisors, who all just gave me that grace throughout my career to make mistakes and, give me that time and space to grow and do better. So when you ask what is compassionate care? What does that really mean for us? Um, I think it's just about listening to another person's story, really hearing them, understanding the impact that their history has on their needs. How their current, needs roll into their desired outcome, and ultimately trying to recognize that we're all humans and we're just doing our best. I really am excited, that our field is finally making a more concerted effort towards improving in this area, setting our clinicians up for success, and... You know, while, while making certain that our BCBAs are really ready to do the very best work possible as they enter the workforce, um, which of course is so important, I think arguably what might be more critical is the impact that that then has on the people that we're, we're supporting. So. The ongoing conversation about compassionate care is one that is completely necessary. I'm just hopeful for what it means for, for our field and in the future of our services.

Jonathan: 7:51

Yeah. to really pinpoint something here that feels important, Callie, is, you know, in my experience, and I'm not a BCBA, um, but when something doesn't go right, with, a client, or with a family, it's rarely, I mean it can happen, but it's rarely that it's cause the BCBA didn't know the science or didn't have all the right goals or wasn't making progress quickly enough or any of those things that are related to the quote unquote clinical practice. I feel it's much more common that there's something that was broken in the therapeutic relationship. Yes. that then cause concern and all the downstream impacts that that had. And so I totally agree with you on this importance. And I want to maybe bring this back to your PhD, which is, I understand was on motivational interviewing. and tell me some more about what's the relationship between motivational interviewing and compassionate care. Yeah.

Callie: 8:40

Oh, my gosh. I'm so glad that you asked that. And I completely agree with what you said in terms of the mistakes we've made or when there's times of heightened emotion, it just goes back to potentially the relationship being damaged or not having spent the time to create it in the first place. And I am so glad that you asked about motivational interviewing. I'm clearly very excited about it, and I think most people are probably ready to toss their dissertation topic out the window, never revisit it again. but I am on the opposite end of that spectrum. I am ready to shout it from the rooftops and just get everyone as excited about it as I am. at this point in time we know that compassionate care is kind of this broad term that is relatively new to behavior analysis. We're just starting to get our feet wet with it. And so as a field, we seem to often think that other disciplines may not have it all figured out. Maybe we see them as less effective, less data driven than behavior analysis, and I mentioned before that behavior analytic high horse, and I think it probably extends to this point as well, but other disciplines have so much to offer us, and I, I think that we should probably start paying some attention, in other disciplines, other helping professions, their clinicians are specifically trained on how to build rapport, uh, How to listen empathically, how to connect in ways that we in behavior analysis simply have not yet mastered, um, but they've been doing it for decades. So, motivational interviewing is an evidence based approach that all of these other helping professions, psychology, counseling, Nursing, social work, dentists, medical doctors, they're all being trained to use motivational interviewing in their clinical practice as part of their educational curriculum. We as a field right now are behind in that respect and so many of these other disciplines spend a full semester or more simply teaching skills related to rapport building and reflective listening. It is just a really exciting approach for me to consider because I, when I think about my career, the majority of my most young memories are, of course, those that are related to awesome progress with clients and you can't ever forget those, but many of them are also related to those significant challenges, with family interaction and I can at least reflect and know how under prepared I was for those challenges. And I just see so much of that, with many of the BCBAs that I work with. So this opportunity, To adopt an approach like motivational interviewing in our graduate programs, in our practicum work, in our ongoing supervision, I think is just, going to be such a huge benefit to clinicians to not only equip them with the skills to make their job easier, but more importantly, equip them with skills needed to really improve themselves. that clinical rapport and those relationships. I mentioned that the motivational interviewing skills can be taught across a semester or longer. So there is just, so much out there. It's not just one teeny tiny toolbox to be used. Uh, and so the wide range of specific skills within motivational interviewing Can of course be practiced, they can be measured, they can be tracked, and there's already just decades of research to support its use, which is so super cool. a lot of people want to know, okay, well, how would we describe it in behavior analytic terms? How is this going to resonate with behavior analysts? and I guess the easiest way is to just, look at it as behaviors that we're going to engage in. So a communicative. approach that really sets the occasion for the person we're talking to, to information share, and ultimately sets the occasion for them to engage in behavior change. So when I think about the one first, and best easiest approach for motivational interviewing, That has at least served me well, is when you're sitting down with a parent before giving advice, uh, before trying to direct the conversation or, um, Even moving on before a parent is ready, just simply reflecting back to them what you've heard and pause, like really pause, um, sit in that discomfort, give them the, the time and space. and this alone, what I have found can open up the floor for them to feel comfortable sharing even more, um, has always been useful in diffusing conflict. building rapport if you don't have any yet, um, repairing a damaged relationship. So, you know, we as behavior analysts, again, may be a little wary of borrowing something from another field, but we're all about gathering information that can serve to guide our decision making. So if we're able to engage in the behaviors associated with motivational interviewing, what the research, in this area tells us is that clients are going to feel more comfortable sharing information related to challenges, related to their goals for service. using this approach also increases consistency with which they attend meetings and clients that have clinicians that use this approach. They also report in research, improved rapport and overall satisfaction with services. so I think it's just so easy to see how these things could have a huge impact on our applied work. of course I can share some articles with you. You can drop them in later for listeners to start to explore it. But, um, I'm just really hopeful that. With some extra dissemination, some extra learning, the field is going to start to consider motivational interviewing as one potential solution for, for some of our shortcomings in the area of compassionate care.

Jonathan: 15:12

I would love to drop those links in the show notes. And this is something that almost is like a duh, right? I mean, as you point out, So many other professions from psychologists to social workers to dentists to others, are taught this in grad school and beyond. And, we'll have to come back to, why has this not yet happened for our field? But I think it's part of this realization you're describing of that importance in compassionate care of starting first with listening and building the relationship. And that's where so much of the power is, you know, this, there's this little, this is probably not at all related to motivational interviewing, but one of the most profound things I learned early in my career number one, not just responding, but like listening to reflect back as you describe what you heard. And number two, instead of saying, you told me, and then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, it's just saying, I heard, and then I would describe what they heard. And then I play, did I get that right? Yep. How would you care?

Callie: 16:03

What an opportunity to clarify. there's times where we may not be listening. Well, there's times where parents have so much on their mind that they're wanting to, to share with us. And, because of that, maybe they've not been as clear as they, they want to. And the example you gave was just such, um, a perfect one of. How to reflect back and ask for that clarification. So that was

Jonathan: 16:25

awesome. Well, so then let's pivot a little. No surprise. This is an extraordinary stat, Callie, but your organization, Mosaic Pediatric Therapy, remember 25 clinics, what I read in the intro, 100 BCBAs. You have a net promoter score from your clients of 85. And let me just put in context how powerful this first, to measure the net promoter score. It's a really easy one question survey on a scale of one to 10. How likely would you be to recommend us to your family and friends. And your client gives you a rating. and here's how it's calculated. You take the, number of people who are raving fans, that is who scored a nine or 10, you take that percentage, then you subtract out the percentage of people who rated you a one through six. so in other words, The nines and tens are net promoters. The one through six are net detractors, and the sevens and eights are a push. And so you subtract these two scores and it gives a score between negative 100 and 100. And by the way, listeners are thinking, well, Jonathan, a seven or eight is like really good. Even a six, five or six is still pretty good. And yes, it's really good. But like coming back to this question, how likely are you to recommend us to a family or friend, you got to be super psyched, right? These are the people that are going out on social media and telling other families and in the parent group. So like, this is a really important stat. So the score goes from negative 100 to 100. I think the healthcare industry overall rates a negative six generally score above zero is good or is decent. the Walt Disney company gets, I think in the thirties, Ritz Carlton and Google getting like the. 50s. Okay. So now we're thinking about like really powerful brands and you scored at Mosaic Pediatric Therapy an 85. That is simply unbelievable. So impressive. So Callie, like what are the top couple of things you've done at Mosaic to achieve

Callie: 18:12

that? Oh, thanks, Jonathan. I appreciate the intro to what a net promoter score is. Cause I think it's a little new to our field generally. And we're just starting to look at it as an outcome measure and, and how we're, really understanding what we're doing and how well we're doing it. Yeah, we're so excited about it. we're excited that our families are feeling good about the services that they're receiving. Just for some context, we ask families twice per year to provide us with feedback on their experience, how they think we're doing, ways in which we can improve. And of course, the net promoter score question, as you just described it, um, you know, we look at this feedback across each clinic and of course across each BCBA. Of course, share that information with them. So we're really getting into the nitty gritty and trying to pay close attention to what might be impacting a parent's experience. I actually recently asked our clinical directors what they feel like contributes to our families feeling so good about Mosaic. And all of their answers were, so fun to hear, and I think they enjoyed reflecting on it too. But there were two similar themes that kind of came out of what they shared. And the first was, clinical quality. And the second piece of it was clear and transparent communication. Our RBTs, our BCBAs, our clinical directors, Really deserve so much of the credit here and they are just some of the most Passionate and committed people that I know and I'm so glad I get to work with them and it seems that our families are feeling the same way, which is awesome And so to answer your question and dive in a little bit I guess to that first piece, which is the high quality services And that for us starts on day one with an in depth and lengthy onboarding process for both our RBTs and BCBAs. we put a lot of time and energy into ensuring that people are well prepared before they are going into a home, into a clinic, and interacting with our families. huge shout out to our training and compliance team. who makes certain that our training is the very best it can be, and sets the occasion for us to learn and really do better every day. They are just an awesome group of clinicians. In addition to our strong clinical quality, I think one thing that sets Mosaic apart, or I guess makes us a little unique, is that all of our support staff, whether that is in HR, our intake department, Recruiters, billing, they have all taken the 40 hour RBT course. and they've also observed direct sessions. So, we do this so that every person at Mosaic is aware of the mission of the organization. And can really understand the services that we're providing and the impact that that might make, on a child's life. So, when a parent then is speaking to any of our departments, they are interacting with someone who truly understands ABA services and why what we're doing is, is so important. That connection, I think, to the purpose is what establishes a relationship with families from the start. it helps us earn their trust, demonstrates certainly our respect, for them and our commitment to them. So, that first part of the equation of family satisfaction, Um, you know, of course, it's high quality, clinical services, but then the second part that, we're really trying to hone in on is the clear and transparent communication. our families know what to expect from us. We are clear in those expectations, that we have for ourselves, and we're certainly consistent with the implementation of policy. So... Parents have enough to worry about each and every day. so if we can ease that just a little bit on our end by being honest and timely and thoughtful in our communication, I really think that makes a huge difference. As clinicians, sometimes we have to share difficult news or talk about challenging topics. And if we always do so coming from it from a place of respect and really focusing on what's in the best interest of the family, I think that that definitely equates to satisfaction for everyone that's involved. More specifically, our BCBAs are really focused on meeting a parent where they are. we talk about that a lot. So, highlighting what's important to their quality of life. creating interventions that are user friendly and really likely to make, a daily impact for them. I am a big happy crier, um, like all the time, and some of my best moments at Mosaic have been when parents have shared their child's wins with us, and how much services have changed their lives. So it's just, I don't know, it is just the coolest and I'm so grateful when parents are willing to share their honest feedback with us, um, and in ways that, that we can improve and also in the ways that, we've enhanced their life up until that point. we're starting to talk more about outcomes in our field, rightfully so, and the measures of family satisfaction are just such a critical component to those strong clinical outcomes, um, and for us are just a main metric of success. So we're really pleased with the feedback that we've received so far. It is

Jonathan: 24:09

extraordinary. So Callie, you and I share something. I am a happy crier too. In fact, oh my gosh, I'll happy cry about, about, about anything. You know what I learned? oh gosh, this is probably 15 years ago. Um, it's one of the newest emotions that was quote unquote discovered through research. It's called elevation. Have you heard of this? It's so powerful. So yeah, elevation is, an emotion listed by like, Witnessing actual or imagined virtuous acts of remarkable moral goodness. And it's this, you get this accompanying feeling of warmth and like expansion accompanied by appreciation. I, and I think it's part of why, meditating and, reflecting on the wellbeing of others. Right. It is so powerful. It like opens up our heart. I don't know. I'm getting like super non behavioral. I love it. This is a real thing, right? and look, we get to experience this every day. What a powerful, just the fact that we can wake up in the morning and have this kind of impact and you know, what's really cool, love that you have all of your, administrative operations team go through the RBT training and witness sessions. That must just create so much empathy across your teams. And I mean, no surprise. You're also Mosaic as I understand in the top 5 percent nationally of employee satisfaction. So like, let me ask the same question as, as the NPS go with your clients. pinpoint for me some of the most important things you've done organizationally to achieve that.

Callie: 25:29

Yeah. I'm glad you shared that about elevation. I'm going to go read on that. It sounds like I resonate with it. Well, um, all right. so employee satisfaction, uh, gosh, our, our people are just the best. so glad we get to talk about it because, uh, it's just something that I'm so proud of. something that we put a heavy emphasis on. I think that just a simple place to start is that we ask for frequent and anonymous feedback from our team, because that is what drives so many of our decisions, so many of our organization wide changes. I can think of all of our initiatives that we have created that are a direct result of our quarterly staff trainings and the ideas and feedback of team. Opening up those lines of communication, I think, is how we have a pulse on what's needed, how we can improve what we're doing well, and just lets us move in that, that right direction. We also, uh, really work hard to ensure strong clinical quality because the success of our clients is obviously the reason that we're here. And when clinicians feel valued, when they feel supported, when they're able to do their job and do it extremely well, that, that feels good, right? we have invested heavily in our clinical support roles and continuing education, which I think really allows both our RBTs and BCBAs to, you know, do their job to the best of their ability. I know for one, when I feel like I'm doing a good job, it, it makes me feel good. I have an awesome level of, of job satisfaction. And I think that that same thing holds true for our team members. So, um, one, asking them for, for feedback and just transparent communication. to making sure they have all of the things that they need to be able to do their job well. and then probably the third one. And what I would say is most important and what I think has the most impact, on our culture and staff satisfaction is having a mission statement, and a set of values that our team resonates with. Every clinical, uh, operational and research related decision we make goes back to Mosaic's values and Mosaic's mission, and I just think that this creates a culture, in which our staff know exactly what to expect from us as leaders, and there's also this cool shared vision that each team member knows how they're a part of it, knows the impact that they're making. Like you said, whether that is the revenue cycle department, the intake team, HR support, our real estate team, the RBTs in our clinic, the mission and values are the same for every person. And the responsibility then for the outcomes of our clients is shared. You know, I, I do a lot of interviews, and at the end of those interviews, I'm sure you get the same question. But so many candidates just ask me why, um, why I stay at Mosaic, why it's the place I've chosen. and my answer is always super easy. It just... is always about the people. I, I just like them. they care so deeply about the work that they're doing. They care so deeply about one another. It just is easy to go to work every day when you see that commitment to excellence. And I guess it's even better when you're having some fun while you're doing it.

Jonathan: 29:24

Yeah. At our heart, we're a human services business, right? So it's our people or it's nothing. you're so right to pinpoint the importance of just like living into your values and having everyone across the organization speak, making sure those values resonate. And then, couching everything you do in terms of those values. It's, it sounds basic, but it's really easy that that can become an afterthought at many organizations. So I appreciate how you've described that. I want to pivot just a little bit and, and ask you about, your time on APBA's board and what did you learn from your experience as a director?

Callie: 29:58

Yeah, absolutely. so APBA is. It's just an organization that I have a great fondness for. Jim Johnston was my graduate mentor at Auburn, the founding president of the organization, and I am incredibly grateful for his guidance and sponsorship. There's this saying that if you are the smartest person in the room, you need to find a new room. well APBA was my new room. I was surrounded by just some of the brightest, Most compassionate, committed people, Gina Green, Charna Mintz, um, Mary Worden, Patricia Wright. It was just my absolute pleasure to get to listen to them and collaborate with them. the board is often made up of individuals who have Different backgrounds in business, um, OBM, operations, clinical, academia, and they all are working together to build on one another's strengths just to figure out the best ways to, to push our field forward. of course, you and I were recently on the panel together at APBA, and I don't know about you, but I just left Seattle feeling... So energized. I truly believed that, APBA is at just the forefront of a lot of the really important changes that that we are excited about, that we're ready to see. and I'm confident in the board and Dr. Sellers moving us towards that, you know, over the next year. for those listeners who are early in, in their career, I just think that APBA has so much to offer in terms of resources, mentorship, support. and I'm also really pumped for APBA in New Orleans next year. I hope you're going, maybe we can get on a panel together again, since that was so much fun last time. Aved,

Jonathan: 31:55

yes. I am in like. Can I tell you that was my first, Seattle was my first APBA conference, like, isn't that crazy? and so I was like, same as you, like walking on air as I was flying back home afterwards. Um, but you know, it was of the many, many highlights. There's a session at the very beginning that's called, I think it's literally called like how to conference. But like how to get the most out of your conference and I, you know, what's amazing is if I had learned that early in my career, like I would have gotten so much more out of conferences rather than just like hanging out with people in the parties and whatever, maybe seeing a couple of sessions. it was so intentional. I freaking Loved it. So yes, I'm in for New Orleans and every APBA conference here forward. Um, but Callie, tell me what's one thing every ABA business owner should start doing and one thing they should stop doing.

Callie: 32:47

Um, well, we've talked a little bit about this today, but I would say one thing that Every business owner should start doing is just listen to your people, listen to the families that you serve, ask for feedback often, respond to it. Asking for honest feedback can really be scary, but it is definitely the best indicator of what you're doing well, what ways you can improve. And so that is what I hope that people start doing so that we can be really thoughtful and how we're serving our staff and serving our clients. Uh, one thing that they should stop doing, let's see. I think I would encourage business owners and leaders within organizations to, avoid. Treating staff or families like, they're a number, on a spreadsheet, a dollar in an account. I don't see that often, but I think that's one surefire way to lead to some dissatisfaction on all accounts. if your clinicians are doing. what they need to clinically for the benefit of their clients. Then everything else falls into place. good quality services make for a healthy business. So, our take on it is, just investing in your people is the best way to continue to grow and keep everyone satisfied.

Jonathan: 34:12

Amen. And if you're going to see them as a dollar in an account, Don't make it like an expense on the P& L to be minimized. Make it an asset on the balance sheet to be invested in. Exactly to your point. I love it, Callie. Callie, where can people find you online? Oh,

Callie: 34:28

all right. Yeah. Um, so I am very active on LinkedIn. Welcome all new connections and messages. Um, you can also of course find more about me and some of the other things we've talked about, on Mosaic's website, which is mosaictherapy. com. also if anyone wants to mentor me on how to be more savvy on social media, I will happily trade them for professional mentorship. So, uh, I'm open for business when it comes to that.

Jonathan: 34:57

Oh, I love it. I mean, social media just is a part of who we are these days, right? Like LinkedIn serves as the resume as much as a resume or CV serves as the resume. Um, oh, that's cool. And you are a forever humble learner, clearly seeking mentorship and guidance. That's awesome, Callie. Okay. Are you ready for our hot take rapid fire questions? Okay, I'm ready. All right, you're on your deathbed. What's the one thing you want to be remembered for? Oof,

Callie: 35:28

I hope that I am remembered for being happy. I hope that there are some, real meaningful connections with other people that I've made. But, you know, mostly when I'm on my deathbed, I hope I'm just thinking, Damn, that was fun.

Jonathan: 35:50

Damn, that was fun. That sounds like a gravestone piece, dude. That's like, what's your most important self care practice? Oh,

Callie: 35:59

um, all right. So in, in my household, we call it no talking time. So if I am in A less than stellar mood, my partner tells me to go have no talking time, and that usually helps, or I don't know, maybe it's just his way of, uh, avoiding me, but in, in all seriousness, just being quiet, it's Um, being still sitting outside, just slowing down is usually the trick for, for how I'm able to practice self care.

Jonathan: 36:36

Oh, I think I'm going to institute a no talking time at the Mueller household. And that's something I need. My wife, Kim would, uh, would affirm that Jonathan could be a no talking time. Um, Callie, what's your favorite song and or music genre?

Callie: 36:51

Okay, So, uh, Bruce Springsteen's Thunder Road is, is one of my favorites. Um, I grew up listening to him. My parents took me to his concerts as a kid. I have always just appreciated that blue collar storytelling. Um, I think something about it just, I don't know, resonates. It's good for the soul. I just recently saw him in concert a couple of weeks ago, so it's, it's been on my mind. How

Jonathan: 37:18

was he?

Callie: 37:19

It was awesome.

Jonathan: 37:23

He literally is the boss. Is he not? He

Callie: 37:25

so is. Um, actually this is funny. So, uh, my partner Caleb got me a t shirt, that actually has an old school picture of, Bruce on it. And it says the only boss of me. Shut up!

Jonathan: 37:39

My gosh, I love it. Can I tell you Thunder Road recalls a very specific time in my life right after I graduated I was in living in Chicago and I had a good buddy Andy Jesson who like turned me on I knew that I had already known the boss clearly but like I didn't know Thunder Road and he helped me understand what a beautiful Song and story it was and I'm gonna read I actually just pulled it up as he mentioned it But there's this verse that goes you could hide beneath your covers and study your pain make crosses from your lovers throw roses in their brain Waste your summer praying in vain for a savior to rise from these streets. Isn't that such a beautiful, representation of being the moment? Oh! Yes! Yes! Well, yes, Callie, well said. Thank you. Oh, I love that. Um, what's one thing you'd tell your 18 year old self?

Callie: 38:27

Oof. 18. I would say that your 20s are gonna be good. your 30s are definitely better, and at this point, I am absolutely planning for my 40s to, like, exceed all expectations. I'm excited about what the future holds, new ways I'm gonna be challenged and grow, so I think I would tell 18 year old me, uh, it just keeps getting better.

Jonathan: 38:56

Ah, it's so true that has been exactly my experience as well. that resonates Callie. Well, you can only wear one style of footwear. What would it be? Can

Callie: 39:06

I go barefoot? Is that an option? Yeah. All right. Bare feet. I would select no shoes at all if that's my option.

Jonathan: 39:15

Ah, I love it. Hey, Callie, thank you so much. This is such a fun conversation. I appreciate you coming on.

Callie: 39:22

You are welcome. It was a blast. I'd be happy to come back anytime, Jonathan.