Episode 78: ABA Owner, Global Non-Profit Founder and Advocate, Amber Nelms

Amber's a classic CEO/Entrepreneur/Founder: she's started an ABA practice, a global non-profit, she's starred in documentaries. I'll highlight two (of many) things I appreciated about our conversation 1) her international non-profit - focusing on parent-training & parent-led interventions - not only addresses supply/demand imbalances for BCBAs/RBTs globally ... it's potentially a model that payers here in the US (that's you, Tricare) are actively exploring; could that be a future for ABA? 2) she's a passionate advocate for women founders/entrepreneurs, as am I. Enjoy, kind listener!

Resources:

>Amber ...

on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amber-nelms-54400170/

by email: amber@triangleaba.com

>Triangle ABA (Amber's ABA practice): https://triangleaba.com/

>Global Behavior & Wellness Alliance (Amber's non-profit): https://www.theglobalbehaviorwellnessalliance.org/

>Neurothrive (Amber's Podcast):

>The Viewpoint with Dennis Quaid (Amber's documentary): https://www.viewpointproject.com/?gclid=CjwKCAiAl9efBhAkEiwA4TorirceN55KcYg9R8FvBxObN_V6fFYiVS6o0r5e...

Building Better Businesses in ABA is edited and produced by KJ Herodirt Productions

Intro/outro Music Credit: song "Tailor Made" by Yari and bensound.com

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Transcript

Jonathan: 0:30

My guest today is Amber Nelms. Amber is a B C B A and the c e o and founder of Triangle ABA A in North Carolina. As a mother of a child with autism, Amber knows what it's like to be on both sides of the equation when teaching and learning how to parent an individual diagnosed with autism, she's also founder of the nonprofit Global Behavior and Wellness Alliance. Amber, welcome to the pod.

Amber Nelms: 0:53

Hey. Well, I am happy to be here, Jonathan. Thanks for having me.

Jonathan: 0:57

I am thrilled that you're here and you're a breath of fresh hair. Amber, you have such a great perspective, you're so engaging I wanna start with triangle A, B A. You are a c e o, and a founder. Um, like what do you wish you had known, uh, that you know now going back when you started Triangle?

Amber Nelms: 1:18

Woo. That is a really great question. Well, actually, I'll tie it back to actually the here and the now. How about this? The one thing that I put is a huge value and I tell all of my staff and put big emphasis on, uh, is learning and growing. And so I think what I would say for. When I first started is like, you will always be okay. As long as you have that mentality, you'll be alright. You don't have to have all of the answers, but you do have to be able to get yourself back up and say, all right, what else do I need to grow in? What else do I need to learn? It's just the next step. And if you have that mentality, the possibilities are endless. you shut your world and make it really small when you decide, you know what, that wasn't exactly how I wanted it to go, or I didn't get to do this and it didn't go how I designed it, so therefore I should just stop right now. Um, if you have that mentality, you, you miss the opportunities that are in front of you, you know? Um, that's what I always say, mistakes are just learning opportunities. So that's what I think I would say, that I learned a part of the, uh, the process plus, caring for others and seeing the individuality in everybody and how we're all so unique. But if we come together with a similar vision, with our values aligned, there is nothing that can stop you. There isn't, you know, if you have those similar values together and you're, you're inspired together to do that, then a, an organization can grow.

Jonathan: 2:59

It's so true, and it's what you're describing and I absolutely agree that this is the difference between a growth mindset and a fixed mindset and as an entrepreneur and founder. And so if you don't have a growth mindset, dude, you're like cooked. Right? But that's part of the experience of being an entrepreneur.

Amber Nelms: 3:16

Mm-hmm. For sure. And then how do you cultivate that with the rest of yourself? How do you create an environment where people feel safe to be creative? And one of the big things is I have a, a lot of entrepreneurs within my company, and I celebrate that. I really want them to have new ideas, new, um, concepts and say, Hey, could we try this? if it works and it makes business sense, I wanna listen to them. Because I know I've worked at places before starting Triangular ABA, where anytime I brought up anything sort of new, it wasn't celebrated. It was like, well, we already have something. We have how we're gonna make money and how we're gonna do something. And lady, Don't mess up the flow. several of my employees have their own podcast, which I'm like so excited. That's like how it should be. We should all be amazing people having interests together, um, doing something great and it shouldn't be a place where no one feels safe to be able to do that. So.

Jonathan: 4:18

Yeah, that feels really important. And what's interesting, I don't think I'm aware of other organizations in our field that actually truly celebrate entrepreneurs being part of the organization. So I wanna get specific, Amber, and like what are the kinds of things you do to create that environment of psychological safety and nurturing the inner entrepreneur in your team?

Amber Nelms: 4:38

Whew, man. You are asking some good ones, Jonathan. I like it. My brain is moving. I like to be challenged. Um, how do I cultivate that? I reward it first. That's one thing I can stand on, that I really actually do. Whatever I say that I'm value heavily. I actually back it up with actionable rewards. So, like I said, uh, for learning and growing, a lot of people, um, don't pay for all staff meetings for like their RBT and their VPs to be, uh, covered, right? Like we make sure they get paid their normal rate for that, not an admin rate. And our lower rate, cause we're saying we value that, I value that, I reward that. I'm actually at NCABA, which is the North Carolina conference. For, behavior analysts right now, and I paid for my staff to go, we're at an Airbnb together, so I'm rewarding that. now in regards to entrepreneurship, I think it comes down to what I just already said in the fact that. When someone brings me a new concept, or even if they come and tell me, Hey, this could be better at triangle ABA, instead of getting extremely, like, what do you mean? Like it could be better. Uh, I'm like, yes. That's awesome. You're joining in. Together to make this better. You have an idea. You thought about something as simple, you know, like one of my rbt, um, just was considering how the toys were laid out on the shelf, and if they were done a certain way, instead of being like, stop bothering me, stop talking to me about this. He thought through it. He was willing. To take the lead and to do it, then I'm gonna reward it. I'm gonna pay for him to do extra time. I'm gonna make sure he's outta the schedule so that he can do it. So I think that's one of the big things. That's as simple as our field of knowing reinforcement. Reward people for doing it. Don't just talk about it. That's one thing that really bugs me. People talk about their values, but they have no clear way they can show they're actually doing it. Don't say it's something that you do in your company if you don't actually have a way to back it up.

Jonathan: 6:46

Well, I think it's super cool that, um, that you pay for learning opportunity. Opportunities, like all staff meetings, and I mean, the fact that you're NCABA's annual conference and you're all in an Airbnb, like what better way to bring people together and show alignment, right? Between the values that you purport and you know what you're doing and, and the community you're building. I think that's, uh, that's pretty amazing. Are there any, interesting, sessions or topics or things that you've been learning at NCABA

Amber Nelms: 7:15

well, I actually missed one of the learning opportunities. All of them are all doing, I was really sad. So I'm here with you right now, so I actually haven't gone to any yet. So I don't know. I will have to get back to you on that. there'll be lots that I'll learn, so, I'll have more to tell you.

Jonathan: 7:31

and I'm sorry that I'm getting in the way of your learning. these, conferences are what fill my bucket and, and especially the learning and how you bring the learning back. Right. one of the big things I have around conferences are like, you know, I'll go and I'll get inspired and then I come back and either I'm just like, blah, to my teams, we've gotta do like 45 different things. I've learned that that's not the most effective way to bring money back, to be clear. but the other thing that, what I'm most fearful of is, you know, people go and get riched and inspired and they've learned all these new things. Then it's like, how do you share that back? With the rest of the organization. Right. This idea of like learning, do you have any tips or tricks for, how you bring that learning back to the org?

Amber Nelms: 8:09

it comes back to the same thing, right? If somebody's very inspired, they're more likely to want to, go do something about it, right? usually when someone's very inspired and they actually have an actionable item that they wanna do, I'm, I'm going make sure they at least have some. Time dedicated to that. All of my BCAs, definitely do that. they have very unique different things they're very interested in. and that's a part of one of my core values at Triangle ABA too is called See the individual. So say, you know, one of my BCBAs is really into like, how do we do aba? Well, almost like in a school environment, how do we set up that one of them into, um, Really what are the core skills needed for learning and spending extra time talking about that. And so she has her set aside time to do those projects too. Um, and she's also really big about developing students. So I would say basically, Just being intentional of saying, okay, that's what you're interested in. honestly, Jonathan, this is the first time we're doing this, so I don't really have the answer. Probably if I had to guess, what I will do is sit down with each one of them, see the individual, like I said, Ask them, Hey, what inspired you? So I get to know again, what makes their mind and what inspires them. What did you learn that you really, really love? What can you do about that right now in your practice, in your cases? And what could you do in the organization? What would make you thrive? How would you come alive doing that? And once we do have like a session thing, and there again, back to your original question, how do you let entrepreneurship grow? That's how you do it. Because they're driven by their own inspiration and you're creating this framework to allow them to be free to do that. So it, it never feels like a top down perspective is just like everyone coming together towards the thing. And I think that's what CEOs are supposed to do. CEOs are supposed to be. skilled at bringing people together. They're not supposed to be like, Hey, everybody, just do, do, do only this. Really, that's what their core skill is. They able to see patterns, inspire vision and bring the right people together to do the job.

Jonathan: 10:22

It's so unbelievably true what you just described. I've always said like my most important role as a CEO is to, Communicate the vision build and align the team around the vision and just relentlessly execute. But man, that core value of seeing individual is super cool. Well, speaking of CEOs, one of the things I know you and I are super passionate about and, and for me it's cuz I've got two daughters whom I want to have every opportunity in the world to be a c e O and to be a founder and writ large in our country. There are many fewer female founders and CEOs than there are male. That's bullshit. It's just not the world I wanna live in. I know you are passionate about getting the word out around, making a difference here. So tell me more about like, how do we make this happen? How do we change this world

Amber Nelms: 11:05

I mean, for one, it's just standing up and being vulnerable and telling your story, and then also believing you have something to share with the world. First off, you know, like that's one thing I know I want to do is be able to, I haven't done this yet, but I'm about to launch Neuro Thrive. It's just a podcast that's gonna be about, How do you thrive in the most, well, sort of way as using behavioral analysis while being somebody that's neurodivergent. And actually this is an interesting fact. A lot of founders and CEOs that are women oftentimes, are neurodivergent. Very interesting, an interesting fact. Um, so being able to celebrate that and understand that about yourself I think is really huge. Um, being. comfortable with standing out, I think is another factor. I was actually just talking to several other entrepreneurs about this, like, I can't think of many women right now doing the thing that I want to do that I can look to. You know, like I have different business guys that I like to listen to and listen to their podcast or, look up to and, be inspired by. But a big thing for me is inspiration. honestly is being able to not see somebody do something perfect, but they just got up and they did what they needed to do and they're willing to let you see the journey of that. You know, I don't know. I know I'm gonna do it and then I hope many other people will follow and do it too, because it does. I'm gonna have to be comfortable with people seeing me. Not be getting it right every single time and saying different things like values that I care about, and hope that others will wanna follow that too and start doing that in their businesses. you know, it's also just knowing that you have. Good ideas and good thought processes, and you're like, you know, I wish people would listened to this. Like, I know it's good shit. I know it's good shit because I'm listening to other people with good shit, and then I'm putting out the, the, does that make sense? I, it's not that I'm just sitting around being like, oh, I know all the stuff. Like in my own head, it's like, no, I'm always learning and growing. Taking what I'm learning and then rethinking through it, and then put it into action. And then I can be like, I can share what I just put into action, and then somebody else might be able to use it. So I know it's good in that regard. To be able to do that, you have to be willing to say No, it's good. And it's okay.

Jonathan: 13:35

I love this idea of like the good shit sniff test that resonates with me. And by the way, we will absolutely drop a link of the show notes to your new upcoming podcast, neuro Thrive. Um, that sounds phenomenal. let me pivot cuz you are an, an entrepreneur at heart. You've started a whole variety of endeavors and one of those, and this is a fascinating fact. Story I'd love for you to share. the nonprofit that you started, the Global Behavior and Wellness Alliance, tell me a little bit more about it.

Amber Nelms: 14:01

Well, that's very new. That's my new baby I'm working on. But I'm super passionate about that too. I start, I very excited about, and I know it's the right to do. actually before starting Triangle, I originally wanted to do a non profit but it wasn't the right time. and most things that I start, are born outta a need of things that I keep seeing. Like it's not in the world and I want it in the world. Right? Like the same thing we were talking about. There's not enough CEO women that I can listen to for inspirational leaders. I can't put on my headphones and be pumped up to be like, oh, I'm gonna do this shit. Like, I don't, there's not enough women to do that. And I'm like, I want there to be representation, right? So I wanna do that. And make that a reality in this world. And the Goal, behavior and Wellness Alliance, how that was formed. I actually lived in India for five years. Um, my son, you know, who was diagnosed with autism, I tried to get him help. And therapy in India first. So I saw how there wasn't a lot of resources and once I decided, that there was no more real viable options for him, I said, in my mind I will be back one day and I will go back to India and I will. Figure out a way to help these other mothers that I'm leaving behind I was telling them I was leaving and they were just like, oh, I wish I could come. I've heard back in the States, they have so many options. and I thought, well, I gotta go back. I have to figure out a way. one of the other passion pieces that I really care about, which is how I became a behavior analyst, is I first started as a parent as therapist model. I would never have understood and loved ABA enough. Hadn't someone taken the time to show me basically how to be a therapist. So I hope I'm tying this all back so people can understand. So talking about the international side, I still was traveling back to India for short periods, even though I had moved back to the state. when this was happening, we were, getting ABA services back in the States and it was old school back then. You know, like the book. For taking data and everything. They taught me how to do that. The parent therapist model was learning how to do dtt, take data in the book. I would go for a month back to India, practice all of the pieces, that he would need and do all of that with him. And then that's when I realized like, wow, I really love this. And it is very possible if you find and you're able to teach parents basically why it's essential. How can be practical parents will really join in with you. I think there really is a possibility. I just don't think the necessity in the US makes it happen as much, but there is a huge, so let me bring it all back together. There is, I was just in Belize for the nonprofit, the Global Behavior Wellness Alliance. I met with many families there in Belize and that is what they constantly are just basically saying it's okay, fine. I will be the parent as therapist model, just teach me how to do it. I'll do it because I know there's not gonna be enough people. so the Global Behavior and Wellness Alliance includes that model with teaching a curriculum online first, so the parents can get caught up. And then I want, so sign up guys, 2024. We're doing adventure trips, so behavior analysts that wanna sign up and be apply for it. You need to show your resume and you're somebody that could actually come with us. We're going to be taking those people that fit the criteria, be able to do awesome, fun stuff. While actually making a difference in this world, that is what the Global Behavior and Wellness Alliance is about. So, I'll make sure the families would've gotten the main core knowledge online and then we'll go do in vivo training, which is really what people need, right? More practice to be able to see and feedback in person. and then I know there's a lot of people that wanna see the world. I know I do. I love travel. So come on, come join me. 2024, sign up on the website. Um, yeah, let's go do some really cool shit together.

Jonathan: 18:04

You'll have to keep me on your email invite list. I also love travel. You know, I was born in Japan. My parents were diplomats, so we moved around a whole bunch and I've gotten to live in Asia and Africa and elsewhere, and so I've been super fortunate. So yes. That sounds amazing. I love that you're opening up the world to behavior analysis and this parents. Training model and vice versa, helping to open up people and BCBAs here in the US to international experience because that's been foundational in my life. But it's interesting this idea of a parent as therapist model, which at least internationally helps to address some of the, just the supply demand imbalance, right? Of their not enough practitioners. And though Amber. Right here in the US some payers are starting to talk about and doing research on, that parent as a therapist model, focusing more on parent training. And tricare as an example, is one who's doing that. But any thoughts around what we can learn, or how to incorporate that model much better right here in our own country?

Amber Nelms: 19:04

Ooh, we need to do it a lot. I mean, that's what I'm working on right now and I'm excited about. just back to the research though. The research does show the parents that are highly involved plus. comprehensive treatment with aba. That's the kids that make the most success, right? How do we do it well in the state? Well, I think one of the ways that we do it is actually making ABA way more practical. You know what I did in research for the nonprofit? I spent the majority of my time with going through all the materials for parent training, no offense to other people that it's not very. A lot of it's not good. I mean, I know there's more stuff coming out and I haven't probably seen it all and I don't like to be negative, It's not that it's terrible, it's just still not very practical and it's not written in the language still that families are going to connect to one big thing and one project that I'm working on and I need a PhD. Level, uh, B C B A to come join me and do research on this is, um, a very interesting factor. I think that would make a big difference is being able to have the families understand the behavior analytic material first by look going kind of backwards by seeing the problem first, like something's going on in their current life with their child, being able to detect that. And then being able to practice whatever skill that you're trying to teach them with that actual problem. So they're working from a motivation standpoint, from the right MO I've anyone do this before, ever. No one has, and I really want to do it. Now, my, my area of expertise is more the creative kind of brain, right? Like, and finding where there's a missing hole. I'm not a researcher, so I need somebody to help me do it. so I feel like that is a huge factor. I've tested it, and my own clinic with my families, and I see the light bulb come off. They just go crazy for it because it's going from their mo. Instead of giving people information, which there again, I stick with themes. I do that with my staff and I try to do that with my clients to the same concept. Start with their motivation. I mean, one big factor for me, two missing in the applied behavioral analysis. Is we don't always actually do it across everything. That's one thing I would say, like ABA could be used for everything. Why do we not see, like, wait a minute, you would do it with your clients that way. Why would you not do it with the parent? Why all of a sudden do we just decide not to do that same concept with them? Why do we not do pairing with parents? Why do we not do, thinking about MOS with parents? Why, why, why? if you think the science really works, why would you not do it?

Jonathan: 21:56

Wait, wait, wait. Hang on. So this is really important. So why do we not pair with. Parents knowing how important building the therapeutic relationship is,

Amber Nelms: 22:06

do we have systems for that? Do you know anybody that's doing that? For one interesting thing, I was doing an interview with someone else the other day, um, and they were saying, I actually have data collection around my parenting procedures for my clients. A lot of places don't have any data collection around that. Why is there nothing about any systems? There's no research about that, about pairing before you do parent training, nothing. And that is the big, huge alarm thing around parent training that I see. Actually, I missed one other point. The other point that I see that is a problem, and I think this is just training in general, and it may be because I am neurodivergent and I'm all about figuring out integrations. that's the way my brain works. I'm about systems, integration systems, how they cross over and I'm good, uh, pick up patterns. So that's one strength I think, or a big strength that I have in figuring out those pieces. But I'm really big in general about training. why do we train in one-off training and topics? And if you even look at the RBT task list, It doesn't look holistic. It looks like 0.1, 0.2. They don't even make sense in their alignment on the task list. So when your brain goes to organize that information, it doesn't naturally fit together. There is some parts of the RBT tasks that I could think. Like, well, data collection or continuous measurements under discontinuous, at least those two topics fit, fit together. But organizing information, everything I've seen in regards to parent training, I mean, maybe Hanley has recently come out with something that was a little bit more holistic and seemed to built around each other. So I was excited about that. His parent training does that, uh, the best that I've seen more recently, but a lot of the parent training material where it's like, oh, we're gonna talk about ABC data. Randomly, we're just doing that. We're just gonna do a one-off ABC training. That's all the time I see it. Oh, we're gonna do seven sessions, seven steps to instructional control. Nothing is wrong with any of those things. And even the training is pretty good. Like just holistically in the fact like we win to the topic. Where is the people teaching how everything fits together? Where's the integration system training talk? That's what I wanna be known for too. I don't wanna figure out how to do it, maybe because that's how I think. But ABA really opened up for me as a more way of life when I started thinking about that's why this matters. This is why this matters. So that's why it all goes together. Not know this one subject matter of discontinuous measurement, like the back of my hand, but it's never thought about in relation to anything else. How are things related? Teachings about that. Sorry, that was a very long tangent, but I've been thinking about it a ton.

Jonathan: 25:01

Yeah. I wanna double click on, you mentioned neuro divergence and how that helps you see patterns and thinking about organizing. mechanisms and principles. and I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, and I think about it as my superpower and I'm, I'm neurodivergent. How, how is your neurodivergence? Um, and tell me more what you've learned about yourself, your practice, and who you are on your neurodivergent journey.

Amber Nelms: 25:23

So, oh, great. Well, I was also diagnosed with adhd, and that's an interesting, factor for most women. a lot of women don't find out they have ADHD until they're in their thirties. That's so common. It's such a common trend. and honestly, once I found that out, a lot of my life starts making sense. Tons of things. So, now whenever I'm on like TikTok or anything and I see something about, adhd and honestly it just makes me feel not alone. That's the biggest thing when you talk about it from a personal level. Now, when I read those stories or I actually listen to other podcasts of women like me, And then I'm like, oh, you have that similar story where you didn't really know which group that you really fit into because you like a lot of male dominated activities, but you are a female, gender or you have a lot of risk taking behaviors. but then at the same time I've seen a lot of negative, and maybe this goes back to like celebrating Neurodivergence, there's still also a lot of. People that often talk about ADHD in a negative connotation and autism actually, right? as if there's something broken or messed up instead of the beauty of celebrating neurodivergence is, no, it's not. It's not that you're somehow a lesser individual, it's that your mind works maybe differently than neurotypical people, and there are difficulties with that. There is no doubt because of my adhd, there are times where, I have a hard time, processing auditory information. If somebody's coming out with me with a lot of different instructions, the executive functioning part of my brain is like, whoa, I cannot put that in the right order. so, but instead of necessarily saying, oh, that person's broken, no, it's just that part of the brain doesn't work like somebody else. I need skills, I need to learn skills, I need to know that that's true for me. Put certain, um, parameters around for myself to be successful. So that's what ABA should be doing for somebody with autism. one thing I do like, sorry, I went on a tangent, but I wanna talk about this so beautiful to me. is that, uh, you know, the whole old school aba, we just wanna make, Somebody with autism become typically developing and that argument that ABA is really harmful. And I'm like, well, that's not, when we do a triangle aba, I'm big about saying you are beautiful as a neurodivergent individual. It's not that we wanna make you neurotypical, we just wanna give you the skills that you need so you can see the world. More because Hey, why do you think that that autism show about dating came out on Netflix? There's a lot of'em wanna have more skills to do that. So they do have things they want and they wanna see the world more. Plus the beautiful part is you want the world to see them. There's so many cool people that are neuro divergent. They're artists, they're interesting, my son is a fantastic artist. He is funny, he's interesting. He, has lots of friends now, but if he had not been given the skills that he needed, the world would've missed a beautiful person that, has so much to offer. that's not exactly what you've asked me. So there you go. This is a case and example of neurodivergent. You gave me one thing and I went bam, bam, and gave you lot

Jonathan: 28:39

Hey, it's all good. Amber, tell me about the five minute documentary you recently recorded.

Amber Nelms: 28:45

Um, well that's another dream that I've always had is to be on TV and be able to talk to people about ABA from a positive standpoint. And that's what I got to do, Jonathan I am so excited! Dennis Quaid I guess created A educational documentary. it's called The Viewpoint. And so someone from his organization reached out to me and they said, there's a lot of people in North Carolina wanting to know more about aba, so would you be interested in doing a documentary that talks about it and why it's important? I was like, uh, hell yes. That has always been something that I was passionate about. Cause many years back I. Went on YouTube and then like went on the internet and there was, and there still is a ton of things about how ABAs. Isn't good. Right. And like that's discouraging to me. So being able to disseminate the positives that are going on or being able to talk about being neurodivergent and that it can still be celebrated from that perspective is huge for me because I know ABA has helped my own personal life. I use it to be the most, well I personally can to help my own child and I help a lot of other people. So the uh, documentary is going to be out on. NBC or Fox, I think, as well as the Discovery Channel. I think those are the top channels. I think it's supposed to be on. It's coming out in April. It's very short. Like I said, it's only five minutes, but it's enough to talk about, what ABA is. my son's on it talking about how it helped him and I talked briefly on it. so I'm happy to get the word out so people can see, and be open to it. without enough information out there that's positive. Some people don't even give a chance, so,

Jonathan: 30:33

That's awesome. I can't wait to see it. We'll drop a link to that as well in the show notes. and well tell me, Amber, what's one thing every ABA business owner should start doing and one thing they should stop doing?

Amber Nelms: 30:50

Oh, that's a good one. Well do your best to not get bought out. stay strong. That's all I have to say. That's what the Global Behavior and Wellness Alliance is about, like figuring out how we can come together as an alliance and, and say we wanna do good quality work without ending up in debt by any means. and then we are a answering to somebody else that doesn't know the field. I mean, and not judging because I understand to grow to the next level. I can see the temptations all over the place and. I don't wanna say that. That's not even something that couldn't be the right answer. I'm just saying be careful, I guess, who you end up aligning yourself with, even if you have to make that decision. Because if they don't care about good quality and you're answering to that, it, that has been one thing I've been thankful for, that I haven't done and I have had to grow much slower. And I know if I had. Taken, the offers that people said like, I could have grown to like five clinics. Right? That would be cool. That would be exciting, and it would look good on paper. But would I have been happy doing that? No. Cause I most likely would've had to make compromises. Like right now, I. Paid for several of my RBTs normal rate pay to just be outta the schedule so they can support the other rbts. That's just unheard of. No one does that. It's not a good moneymaking model, but I know from what I dreamed about for like social groups and good actual learning environments, I dreamed of that when I was a RBT of somebody actually taking the time So that's one thing I would say. I know your financing will think you're crazy for that idea. And it isn't great necessarily to be paying somebody that when there's no billables coming in. But it can make a huge difference on morale and you are backing up what you said. You're not just talking but not backing. Like I get to show myself I am committed to that. This is how I'm showing you. I'm committed to you being able to have the best quality. Cuz I know you need somebody to, um, set up social groups and be like the main person organizing how the gonna be. and for somebody to have the time able to do that and paid do it not just a student whenever they hear and then can do it, that's not sustainable. Who can do that? So that's one thing I would say. To do and then I told what not to do. I do think that's pretty unique. When I was, interacting with some other behavior analysts from other companies, most of them had never heard of that and they thought, I don't know anybody doing that hardly. Maybe universities, there's some that have that funding, but a typical ABA company that's not happening often.

Jonathan: 33:33

Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and by the way, I think that's, that's fantastic that you're paying your team. Um, Coming back to Lion of Dear Values for learning, for shadowing others and for, um, uh, doing things that will, that make them feel like you're investing in them a as opposed to just minimizing them as an expense. Well, Amber, where can people find you online?

Amber Nelms: 33:57

Well, uh, triangleaba.com. you can find me on there, you can find me, on the global Behavior and wellness alliance.org website too. those are the two places, or you can email me amber@triangleaba.com so those are the top three places. Um, and yeah, I'm always ready to chat and collaborate with others this work. Is inspiring to me no matter what. Like even if Triangle ABAs tomorrow, I'd be figuring out somehow how to help get a to. So I'm just be doing this, so to

Jonathan: 34:37

Awesome. We'll drop those links to the show notes. Uh, are you ready for the hot take questions?

Amber Nelms: 34:42

sure. Let's do it.

Jonathan: 34:44

Here we go. Rapid fire, uh, you're on your deathbed. Amber. What's the one thing you wanna be remembered for?

Amber Nelms: 34:51

That I wasn't afraid to live my life in a way that could make the biggest impact, and that I wasn't afraid to tell others what could make a difference in their life, but I didn't shy away from that. And I was brave with them. I told'em whether they loved it or not, and it made a difference. they can remember that one thing that I said that said, oh shit, maybe I should go for that. Like that's what I wanna be remembered for, because that could live beyond you. And most people are just wandering through life aimlessly. I just wanna be someone that lives my life with intention and then, Sees others and says, wait a minute, I see you. You're amazing. if you did this, this could be awesome. And even if it's controversial sometimes, and they'll still remember that because I was brave enough to do it, to bring it up, you know,

Jonathan: 35:48

Yeah. What's your most important self-care practice?

Amber Nelms: 35:53

uh, meditation and yoga. Actually lots. That's the one thing I've learned to do really well. Take care of myself. I used to be terrible. Now I love myself. and this is the funniest thing, I never realized how important it was. Like, loving yourself. You can love others way better. So meditation, yoga. I love yoga. Oh, and I have yoga for all my staff. Cause I love it. Too so much and provided there as a clinic and whatever. That's not what you're asking me. But yeah. also, I really loved, float therapy is amazing. You've never tried it and you already, like meditation. Float therapy is like meditation on crack or, sorry. Yeah, that's, that's correct.

Jonathan: 36:39

I actually have a gift certificate for my wife for a float session that I am going to schedule momentarily. I've never done it before, so it sounds like I need to do it.

Amber Nelms: 36:47

love it, but you like meditation.

Jonathan: 36:49

Oh my gosh. 20 minutes every morning. That is my,

Amber Nelms: 36:52

You are amazing. You should. You should be so proud of yourself. 20 minutes is a long time. That's impressive.

Jonathan: 36:59

Thank you. I am proud of myself. More importantly, though, I just hit a, I think it was like 79 days in a row of doing it. And so that's, I'm just, I'm building on wins. Building on wins. Thank you. Thank you, Amber.

Amber Nelms: 37:10

Jonathan. That is very impressive. I don't know if people are really taking that in, but you should listen to this man. Cause people that take the time to slow down, that's who you should trust. The people that are just going through life are not taking the time to slow down. You should be a little nervous, but people, that's quite alright. You, you challenge me. I want to get, I'm not at 20 minutes yet. All right. Fine. Thank you.

Jonathan: 37:37

I love it. Hey. No. Hey. Why? I always like to say slowest smooth. Smooth is fast, and meditation is one way to help me get in my right mind space every morning. Uh, what's your favorite song and or music genre?

Amber Nelms: 37:50

Ooh. Uh, that's an interesting one. I really would say in general, I probably would say alternative is my favorite alternative rock. But I've been recently beginning into, I don't even know how to describe the genre. actually come from a family of musician and artists and they make fun of me a little bit. They say like, what's rock amber? You have some weird music, dude, but I mean, I kind of like rap rock. Electronic mix. I know that's weird. It's not a very common mix of music and, but I do kind of like that. I actually like this band. It's not very well known. It's called Neffex and it is rap Rock, like I said. And they mix a little bit of electronic in there too, like throughout it. So I just, I like to run. So that's another wellness thing I do. And it is, it's also interestingly enough, The lyrics in a lot of it is about somebody, it sounds like an entrepreneur to me, honestly, the way he describes himself in his lyrics and he is basically, so I like that, where I can kind of get that vibe and pump myself up. So, um, yeah, that's the answer.

Jonathan: 39:00

Cool. What's one thing you tell your 18 year old self?

Amber Nelms: 39:04

Um, my 18 year old self. Don't. Um, Ooh, this is a harsh one. Maybe you shouldn't trust everyone. So implicitly, not everybody naturally cares for others. Oh, that sounds dark. It's probably the darkest thing I said, but, but I mean, that's what I would've said to my 18 year old self, like, Not everyone is actually caring and some people are manipulative and are gonna take advantage of you, Amber. So you better learn that I would've loved to learn that at 18 nine, and maybe it's cuz of my neuro divergence. I kind of believe people implicitly, usually I've learned some skills now being able to detect like, wait a minute, just cause they say that does not mean they actually.

Jonathan: 39:54

Insightful. All right. And you can only wear one style of footwear, what would it be?

Amber Nelms: 39:59

Oh shoot. Probably what I'm wearing right now, which would be like a wear kind of tennis shoe that would make me happy. I could wear that with dresses and I can wear that with what I'm wearing now. That's. That's what I gotta wear.

Jonathan: 40:18

Nice. You wear it to work out, you wear it to conferences, to the office on your feet or not. I love

Amber Nelms: 40:23

Hello? Should I, should I put it up here right now? I don't know. I'm, I'm always down for I, I'll show example. Why not?

Jonathan: 40:30

Oh my gosh. For our YouTube viewers. There we go. That looks like a super comfy,

Amber Nelms: 40:34

It's up there.

Jonathan: 40:35

did I hear you use the term amber athleisure?

Amber Nelms: 40:40

Yeah. It's like kinda like, I don't wear these to run in, these are not comfortable enough to run in and are not serious enough to, to run in, But I could walk in them in decent amount and they still kind of look cute from, I mean, I know that's probably not on your radar, but so I would wear those shoes as a dress.

Jonathan: 40:59

Right on. Well, Amber, thank you so much for coming on the pod. It's been an awesome and fun conversation.

Amber Nelms: 41:05

Oh, it's been a pleasure. I feel bad that I didn't have you talk as much, but you just asked me so many good questions and I love sharing. Thank you so much for the privilege, Jonathan, and when I have my podcast and love have you on it. You are amazing individual. That is truly, I could tell really caring so I'm thankful to have gotten to know you, so thank you.

Jonathan: 41:27

Thank you, Amber. It would be an honor.