Episode 75: Meet CASP's Newest Board Member Dr. Rachel Taylor

Dr. Rachel Taylor is the newest-elected Director of the CASP Board of Directors and a longtime ABA business owner/operator. When her son was diagnosed and she was seeking therapy, her reaction was "we know how to do this better." That's been the basis of her decades long passion for highest quality ABA programs and advocacy in our communities. I liked learning about her Risk-Driven Approach (RDA) to the consulting work she does with organizations. The goal? "Maximize desired outcomes and minimize risk." Applies to life as well!! Enjoy, kind listener!

Resources:

Rachel on...

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachel-taylor-caba/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Dr.RachelTaylorCABA

CABA Consulting: https://www.cabaconsulting.com/

Building Better Businesses in ABA is edited and produced by KJ Herodirt Productions

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Transcript

Jonathan: 0:30

My guest today is Dr. Rachel Taylor. Dr. Taylor supported individuals diagnosed with neurodevelopmental disorders for more than 20 years. She serves as a CASP board member, member of the Scientific Council for the Organization for Autism Research, and as an advisor to the Cambridge Center for Behavioral Studies. She's a founder and former CEO for the Center for Applied Behavior Analysis, CABA and is a senior consultant with CABA Consulting. Rachel, welcome to the pod.

Rachel Taylor: 0:57

Thank you for having me here.

Jonathan: 1:00

it is my honor and pleasure to have you. And gosh, I wanna know all about your CABA journey and, like maybe most specific, like when was the moment you knew you wanted to start a new a b a organization?

Rachel Taylor: 1:13

You know, I always imagine like how absurdly, ridiculously wide, the range probably is on answers that someone in my role can give to this question. Right? And at the same time, I'm thinking we all probably have like a pretty common consistent theme, which is the moment that I really thought I was going to and totally didn't think I was going to. Right. I'm a weird one though. So I have a bit of a odd history in aba. Let me start by explaining that, uh, I did not launch CABA until, I think it was more than a decade after I defended my dissertation in behavioral analysis. So right there is a bit of an odd background, uh, and that that means I had my master's degree and my B C B A for a really long time and I had floated around in different, fortunate for me, different amazing positions that crossed from academia through clinical practice and research. And the part of my story and a personal part that's odd is, uh, I was nursing my son in my arms at my doctoral defense, no joke, to the point where when the committee goes back in the room and gets to discuss whether or not you're a doctor and they make you wait outside, like in the movies and then they come out and say, Now when they came out, I had to say, I'm sorry, I'm gonna need you to wait cuz I was still nursing because they'd had me in there for so long. Like, I still remember this, right? I tell this because it was seven years later that my son was diagnosed and my husband, at the time, which is not his father, was the, stay-at-home dad. And oddly enough, he is not a B C B A and he was the first when I would come home from work and my son had been in sessions to say, I don't think this is what should be going on. Like I don't, they're not seeming to work on the goals that are what we need right now. And hasn't everyone told you to, you know, start an ABA company So I was first trying to explain to him that, uh, no, you don't go from being the director of research for card and being the founding department chair of a PhD program to opening an A B H. Boy was he right? He, he kept every day saying, we know how to do this better. And a lot of my former grad students were increasingly getting frustrated at their agencies and, and feeling like they weren't getting the support they needed. And, and I think they all trusted that, uh, I would bring an academic model to the clinical practice. so a lot of my former students were ready to wanna start with us too. So we were in a great position to. Say, all right, let's go for it. And honestly, a lot of people don't know. CABA was, uh, supposed to be a social skills group in my small town in California and that was gonna be it. Yeah, yeah. Uh, we have four offices, uh, three with physical locations. 250 staff, I think 27 BCBAs and seven different service lines, including four community living homes. So, it's not what we expected eight years later, but I know that part of the story sounds very familiar, uh, and is ironic cuz I was, focused on the don't grow too big, too fast. And in my defense, we turned down like a dozen homes. We turned down several locations and our locations all open based on a very personal connection of mine, either professionally, um, or academically. That was in one was Northern California, same with Central California. And called and said we'd like. CABA to be here primarily cuz CABA offers services across ages, which is not as unique now as it was eight years ago, which I'm excited about cuz I didn't wanna be the only, uh, adult provider. but we, we support children as well.

Jonathan: 4:38

well, I have to first reflect on something. So my wife is a lactation consultant, so she is yelling right now. You go girl. She's a passionate advocate

Rachel Taylor: 4:46

about that and I knew that

Jonathan: 4:48

I love it. I love it. I love it so much. And yes, defending dissertation while nursing high five sister, that's sick. But you know, this idea of we know how to do this better. That's such the archetypal, like entrepreneurial journey, is it? It feels like that to me. And it speaks like the passion and like extreme commitment to everything that's gonna happen to you, like becoming an entrepreneur and growing an organization. All the challenges you face, that sounds like an amazing, seed to the organization. But I'm curious, what's been the most challenging part of your CABA journey and that, that you would not have anticipated going into it?

Rachel Taylor: 5:23

before I jump right into that, you know, I ha I'll, I'll say, and although I love the women empowerment moment, and now I'm about to say I couldn't have done it without my husband, and that's real. So I wanna clarify that, so I was a professor. and I, I advised a lot of people who own amazing companies, actually, when we launched the program that I taught in Southern California, it was a model that was designed for full-time working people. So a lot of former students that I had known in a master's program had started successful companies down here. And when the school approached me to ask me to help them start the program and don't let me forget, I'll get back to the most challenging part. But you made me think of it. And I wanna say this part because. I know there's a lot of entrepreneurs and you have the C-suite kind of audience here. And you know, at the time the school said, we wanna start this program. Who do you think would wanna be in a PhD program? And, and I said, incredibly well established agency owners that have a master's degree and they're not gonna wanna move to Kalamazoo right now. They're not gonna go to Florida right now, so we're gonna need to design this as a, a weekend only model. So I, I wanna say as well that it's not just that my experience across all those positions put me in a better position later in life to. Be as successful as we were in the last eight years. It's that I was learning from students that were owning and operating agencies when I was a professor. and I'll be honest, the ones that were successful were the ones that were partnered with people who had formal business training and a business background. And I think that's what my moment that I, well go back to saying I'm yay, go, go BIM in. And I did it. And at the same time, my husband was in the finance world, my husband was in real estate, and I, I always said to people, they say, why don't you start your own company? I'm like, the farthest I can go down the finance route. And it's actually very helpful. Now I'm about to make this joke is a major focus of my own work in grad school was behavioral economics. so I can engage in the dialogue, you know, to say the least. Um, and my pre-doc work was at Johns Hopkins and or Kennedy Krieger. Really not formal pre-doc, but before I went to my PhD program. So, The notion of values-based care and the medical model. I've been in that since 1999. You know, so I'm not saying that I didn't have unique things, but if I didn't have my husband who had that viewpoint, we wouldn't have made it. And it's especially now with the massive change in the way finance operates within our world. So I just wanna clarify that. on that note, uh, most challenging thing, I don't wanna make it a pandemic heavy talk, you know, but it, it is, and I, I wanna come up with like a, we're in this, you know, three year mark, right? So I feel like I need to pivot the conversation cause we can all move. No, that's just, that's it. Bottom line. Bottom line. Why for us though, and I became a, a little bit of a, a semi YouTube, not star in our field. Star means you get like a thousand views, right? transition to telehealth. We called it because I was panicked when covid hit for CABA. And within our field, there was a lot of debate about that, which defined an essential worker. Um, it was next level for us because there was no option. There was no, we're gonna cancel session the homes that we operate are through the state of California, the d d s system and the regional center system. These are not private community homes where we can tell the families, sorry, if you come wanna come visit your individual, you can't bring them back. Which is what a lot of community living homes had to move to those policies in that first three to six months. And there was nowhere. And then a few weeks into it, then the beginnings of the fear of having staff. And at one point I remember thinking, How does this work? Do we call in the National Guard? there's no one but me and my husband and my brother, and it's two dozen, couple more than that. BCBAs and. Anyway, that, so there's the drama moment for you. I mean, that would be hands down, the biggest challenge, the most unexpected, the most terrifying, you know, and I still here now, sitting here three years later, have have no idea how we got through it. And the transition to telehealth was me putting out videos panicking, just like, everyone take a moment and let's make sure that we remember the work we're supposed. And I was actually just talking to our team cuz we hadn't even really had a strong virtual presence with each other to that point. So that was challenging too. We really built ourselves as a brick and mortar company. I, I said that earlier, I'm an old school academic girl. If I'm gonna have everyone with their advisor, we all need our nice little offices so that part of going through it, so the YouTube was just, cuz I didn't even know how to share a video, so I opened it again and then suddenly other people started watching. And it's really funny when you go back and, and I'm like in my backyard, like talking to the supervisors, Yeah, so I'll flip that and say I think the best was looking back and being like, and we got through that, you know? Um, and here we are, although I still dunno if we're getting through it to be frank, but right now I can still say with full confidence that uh, we have no staff furloughs, no one had a, a decrease in pay. Anyone that was with us the whole time makes more now than they did before. my husband and I went to minimum wage for, I black out for how long, but, you know, so there was tough decisions in that process to stay a family owned and operated company. But my brother had a restaurant background, uh, actually hospitality and I should say bigger than restaurants, but, uh, the, the restaurants I think of is, I, he was no joke in like back alleys in downtown LA calling his old friends to get us p p e. And we were like in the front of the line because we're like convenient restaurant staff have. Gloves and it was really like, go call those guys cuz we're in it. if I come up with a sexier story someday have me back on and I'll, I'll stop being so pandemic focused, but it's still with us, you know, every day.

Jonathan: 10:59

We, you know, you've, you've struck a nerve cuz we're recording this episode almost exactly three years to the day that the world shut down. And, you know, I don't think I've ever shared this on the pod, but this question of essential worker, I mean, you brought that back so vividly and you know what my experience was Rachel. We were, um, you know, just like everyone, we were like, what the heck's going on? should we even continue services? Should this organization exist? And, um, our decision point became easy. When we just asked our families, what do you want? Right? And I think we had 10% of our, our families decided to take a break. Many of them ended up coming back. All the rest said, we need you more now than ever with the world shut down and school shut down. So it was a simple decision. So on the one hand, Rachel, like, we're hearing this feedback from our families, and on the other hand, there, there were debates in our field about whether or not we were essential workers. And this felt like a freaking crucible are we in medical necessity? Right? Like, and, and it's clear we're medical necessity. And so I, but that was a dichotomy.

Rachel Taylor: 12:03

here's where you see where I'm not your typical agency owner. How far are we in? And I'm gonna be a total dork. Where did my head go? Listening to you. I'm like, I wish we had a research protocol in place. Your numbers, that's fascinating that I will, it's an empirical question. But we weren't in a position to ask some of our families. We weren't, to be frank, I can't even, I'm, I think that was our protocol. Uh, Across the service lines that was not initially, but I, you just blew my mind on the 10%. And my why I said I wish there was a research protocol is, and I knocked on wood. I don't wanna put this out in the world, but if this happens again, um, uh, can everyone please do what Jonathan said so we can get numbers on the percentage of families? I'm thinking your numbers might not reflect if a lot of other organizations have done this. And again, it's an empirical question, but I would argue that if we were to dig into more questions as to why your families said yes, that that was fully representative of a, what, what a fascinating treatment satisfaction measure you just did. Like, you know, like in the weirdest conditions, right? Like, it's like if we could do like an analog, it would be really jacked up, right? Like, how do we make the thing as messed up as possible and say, do you still want us? Anyway, sorry. That's amazing. That speaks volumes of the work that you do. I think so. Cool. So anyway. Yeah, no, it is, it's uh, three years to the day and. That for me is super salient because, uh, as many people know, I was the conference chair for the second largest, ABA conference in the world Calaba and we were onsite, uh, last week, three years ago, and unfortunately had to shut down onsite. So, yeah. Uh, I'm with you. It brings back a lot of stimulus, stimulus pairings as us dorks say, you know, but

Jonathan: 13:43

Well, it's this whole idea, you know, one of my favorite books is The Messy Middle by Scott Belski, who talks about how in entrepreneurship, like the beginnings and the ends and transitions are all celebrated. No one celebrates the hard work that happens day to day. And yes, a pandemic is maybe on one end of the spectrum of hard work, but that's a great example of how you are forced constantly as an entrepreneur, as a business owner to evolve your service or product offering and make sure you're listening to your, your clients and everything that comes with it. But I want to ask you, Rachel, I think it was last year, you deliberately chose to hand over the CEO reigns, um, and that takes extraordinary intention. Tell me more about why you made that decision.

Rachel Taylor: 14:23

Yeah. And I, and I love your language, Jonathan. I have to say that you just said, stood out to me the, uh, extraordinary intention and, you know, I, all right, I'll go back to that. If, if it makes sense for me too, if, if not, then remind me to save it for a total analytic Geek Fest podcast. All right. Because it is a fascinating concept, right? But, uh, you know, the story's multi-faceted. Uh, so yes, I stepped down in Spring as CEO, and, we are officially eight years. I always forget, so, and interestingly, so that means when Covid hit, we were at that crucial five-year marker, um, of really where most small owned family and operated companies are gonna make it or break it, and, So it was a couple different things. We did need to go through a reorg, so as many did, uh, in terms of, as I just mentioned to you, coming out of brick and mortar, getting through, transitioning the format of services, et cetera, that list could go on and on. and keeping an eye on how best to stay sustainable. I mean, just bottom line and realizing, all right, some decisions need to be made now that there were certain departments that we had developed when we thought we were gonna be primarily on ground So certain departments we realized weren't functional in the structure that we had now that had really naturally come out of the last three years in the processes. And so we dissolved those departments and as I mentioned earlier, we were thrilled to be in a position to. To be offering the people who were running those departments, uh, a lateral type move, so that there was no pay change, and it was similar type of work, but it was a title change. So in the process we decided that the notion of having directors and assistant directors didn't work. And it was really the departments that drove that. We had a training department and we now have that more infused in our work throughout. So we didn't, it made no sense to have that standalone. We had a systems development department and needless to say, that definitely is now infused throughout everything. We did not need a standalone fancy systems development department. But those two directors were phenomenal and they hadn't even been functioning in those roles for the two and a half years of the pandemic. So it all made sense, but we knew that that was still going ruffle feathers. Uh, cause some potential discontent, no matter how strategic we were about it, no matter how much intention we had. So, I will fully admit, and I said it then, that me, this is one part of it. So me saying, okay, we are doing this. We are changing people's positions. this is part of my investment in this for everyone to see that this is makes sense too. When you looked at it functionally and we really analyzed what had been happening. My husband had, had functionally become the ceo. And so that's a little bit different there too. It doesn't, even if you're not married to the person, I, I actually, I should Yeah. Change that. I'm sure other organizations went through this where I. Regardless of spouse status that someone else ended up taking on different roles when just even just, you had to be in different meetings. I mean, as silly as that sounds like, that it wasn't something you just had to be, cuz you suddenly were facing all these different legal considerations and retention issues and whole new world. So functionally he had been functioning like that and I think us coming out of the gate and saying, yeah, I love this title. Yeah. It meant a lot to me that I started this organization and, but no, I'm not doing that role and there's someone who could be doing it better. That was part of it. Now the bigger part of it though is, and I'm so thrilled now to answer this question, versus five months ago was, because I didn't know if it was gonna work, and I think it has, I switched to a consultant role, so I didn't just step down and not just, that sounds terrible, but I could have stepped down and said, okay, now I'm your chief clinical officer, or Now I'm your people officer, or whatever. No, I became a consultant and we, we made very strategic legal decisions around that. I am the owner, I'm the majority owner still, but because of that fact, we had to make sure that I do not have decision making power. The interesting part of the story is it, it took, uh, a couple of months and I didn't anticipate it for, uh, I think some of our team members to believe that, and it couldn't have been better. It was like out of a movie. I'd be in a meeting like sometime in the summer and one of them would be like, well, Rachel, and they would tell me some like massive thing, but they would jump right into it and I would be like, oh, hold on. Because they could tell me anything. I'm the consultant team, knew that they can tell me anything. Exec can't. Right? But I'm there to support these guys and my job is to then go back to senior exec and tell them what I think needs to happen. And so this huge thing would come up and I'd be like, oh wait, okay. Hold on. I no idea what you're talking about. And, but you don't know this. And I should have anticipated it, right? Because it is my husband and my brother that they wouldn't believe us. But I think there was a moment that I think I got a little, I'll be honest, a little fussy, But, uh, you know, I had to kinda get past that. so that's my badly way of telling you the intention was am I going to be able to make a bigger contribution to the shenanigans, uh, that are continuing to happen by really being Not a neutral voice, but a guiding voice. Right? A consultant's not neutral, right? but someone who can communicate with a hands off kind of way here. Because ultimately I, I don't have the ultimate decision. And it, and it worked, I think amazing across both groups. The, I already, I feel, I hope had the trust and the support of the staff members at work for, with a long time, but it got better. And senior exec as well. Like I even hear other members of senior execs sometimes joking like, well, I don't know you're gonna, they're not joking, they're serious. They're like, talk to her consultant about it. And then she's pretty good at that job, you know? And my other joke is it's really tough being a consultant for this company cuz that last CEO totally screwed it. But I am in, then that's the third part. So one being functionally how it helps the reorg, and I won't say buy-in, it's more than that, but, uh, but globally, two, how it positioned me to help. Further operations, just straight up effective communication, issues. Um, and then third is, is is my own emotionality and, and stress. Everyone asks me, you know, oh, so you work less now? And I'm happy that if, uh, another exec member or management member even overhears that they'll even jump in and go, Nope, she's working more. And I'm like, thank you, cuz I don't wanna be the one who's in. But now I, I'm working more. But it's the whole, you know, working smarter, harder, all of that. It's, it's really though the, it it's the emotional toll of it. I'm, I'm less just completely freaked out coming into every conversation. I can take it in better and stand back and I thought I had had that under control. But believe me, when you, when you flip roles and you're really in it on the opposite, yet you find yourself identifying way more moments that would've gone differently.

Jonathan: 20:49

Rachel, that's energizing. And I want listeners to take two really critical things away from this. Number one is your selflessness and self-awareness as a leader to always put the mission of the organization first. That's clearly what I heard as part of this is, you know, everything at the end of the day is about your mission and clients and your team members. Um, and it sounds like you are the one to raise your hand to say, yep, this reorg makes sense. But number two. Every organization as you grow. there's this mnemonic out there like when you double or triple in size, like everything breaks, right? So you're constantly having to re-envision what your organization looks like. And this is especially true in ABA because there's so much need, so many providers are just growing and it's like up and to the right, right? If you were to look at a graph on this and the ability to say, what does the structure of this organization need to look like in our next leg of the journey to best fulfill our mission is just like super powerful. Did that take a while to come to, is this something that you all have been talking about or did it kind of like come to a head and say, this feels natural.

Rachel Taylor: 21:54

thank you. I appreciate everything. Thank you, John. Well, a couple things. The behavior analyst in me has to, not push back on your complement, but acknowledge that I am the owner. So, as, as much as I appreciate the mission first and the selflessness first, you know, obviously there's a different drive there, right? So I just wanna acknowledge that I, I recognize that. Funny you say this, and I, I keep meaning to look up the term. Um, so I was a consultant. When I was a professor, as I mentioned earlier, that program, a lot of the students were working for local agencies and so they would be telling their CEOs, there's this crazy fast talking professor who I think can help X, Y, and Z. And so I had a side consulting gig years ago and went into a lot of companies in California. And, uh, one in particular, the story is out there a lot, so I won't tell it again, but it was a, a large scale company that was a floor time agency and they were, uh, transitioning to aba. It's a, a long story, but um, an amazing process to come into as a consultant. And, that owner hired a very traditional chief operating officer, this phenomenal woman. She graduated from Berkeley. I think she'd been with like Guitar Center or something, or maybe a House of Blues or something. I mean, just amazing hardcore business woman. And I still remember to this day, and this is like 10, 12 years ago, and my job was to come in and do I do systems level work So it's not just on the clinical side. especially cuz they were, they were changing their, their clinical structure. So then that required having to change those positions as well. Right. So, and the requirements and a billable and the training and everything, but from the systems level, and they were growing quickly. Uh, that's why I finally stepped away from both academia and helping others is I realized every organization I went into, I'd be like, I'm doing it. I'm disseminating good work, I'm great. And I think I did, but then I'm like, and I just helped you. Quadruple in size, like in two years. And I didn't mean to, like, I didn't, I mean, there's pros and cons to that. I'm not anti quick growth, but more often than not, what I saw was the quality go down and, and frustrations increase. And people feel like they signed on for something that they weren't promised. And I sometimes was the one that they put out there as the show pony to promise it. So it was a little like, you know, this woman came in and this was my last gig I guess. And so I had learned at this point what the story I just mentioned two seconds ago. So I wanted to protect that, but I knew we had to move quickly. I could feel the push coming and I guess I was doing similar work like this. So in a moment, I'll tell you where it came from, I think. But, uh, funny you said that because. She came in my office one day and she sat down and she had started like six weeks earlier. She's like, do you have a minute? And I said, yeah. And she goes, I've been watching you. And we were prepping for a retreat. So I had them get on a cycle. I'm like, you're gonna need to do a retreat every three to four months. I know how much it's gonna cost. You gotta get all these guys in the room for two days at a time. I will build it out. So we did like a mini conference, like for the two years of this transition, and we broke down admin and clinical and we're like, we got it. And I just, that's how we would go. And she, she called it like dynamics. You have the people who listen and you're the business person. So there's a term, this was like 12 years ago and I never looked up the publications, but I, I remember the word dynamic in there and she was labeling it like, I could kind of hear the entrepreneurial journals or the. Whatever C-suite journalist that I knew nothing about and she and all my, like jm, not even Java. Okay. The journal experimental analysis is up on my wall as she's talking to me. Not even applied. Alright. Like the full volumes. Alright. And she's like talking to me and she's like, so there's this whole thing. Cuz what most people do is they have a strategic plan and when problems are popping up, they'll identify them, but then they're gonna slate them for, they can't do that until they're Q3 or they're Q and she's like trying to tell me how amazing it is that I'm coming in and Jonathan, what am I doing? I'm observing human behavior and identifying the environmental variables that are contributing to. What we want or not what we want. And I am, funny enough, I'm almost engaging in like grad school style research labs. By the way. I'm putting meeting structures in by having people come in and identify, these are the markers that we've seen this week. And not just, we're going through our finance reports and da da da, but performance and I, so I think I'm not familiar with that. I don't feel like I studied or learned it. I think I'm a trained behavior analyst and, and my training is unique in that I, I am not trained in, in autism. I mean I am, but meaning my degree's not in autism, my degree's not in aba, right? Am I PhDs in a psychology with an emphasis in behavioral analysis? And that means that I have equal training across human and non-human behavior, right? And regardless of the population, including organizational behavior management, so I, I have to give a shout out to you and r there are few grad programs that have a very strong track in, in OBM. So I did learn from amazing people early on, but I had no idea sitting in a class about Abernathy or about whoever insert om leader here was any different than my FBA class. I mean, I knew we were talking about employee performance in the one class, and I was talking about. An individual self-injury. Like I'm not saying I was missing that. Right. But, so I think it's that training, you know, and I, and I, I think you're seeing that merge more and more now you have a, uh, I was just telling you, I had lunch with Melissa Nok, who's the deputy executive Officer, the B A C B, and if you're connected with her on LinkedIn, you'll see she's at a conference right now for assessors, I believe. Not in behavioral analysis, like general assessment. And, uh, she also just earned a new HR certificate and we're talking, and she's like, Rachel, it's like amazing. If you go into these organizations and you listen, they're talking about risk and they're talking about human behavior, they're, I'm like, yes. So, so, but I think that's where we get ourselves in trouble too, right? It's the, I know this, it's behavioral analysis, so I don't do that either. but I will have no problem acknowledging that my expertise is observing human behavior and, and environmental conditions and identifying. What needs to change. I don't mean to simplify it that much, but that's the foundation of ada. It's not discreet trial or, or conducting a preference assessment or getting an authorization. It's understanding why humans think, feel, and behave and act as they do, and under what conditions they're more or less likely to do it. And fortunately, that base knowledge has helped millions and millions of autistic individuals. That's great. It also has helped with trills and billions of drug addicts and totally typical humans and anyone who's behaving, acting, thinking and feeling.

Jonathan: 28:12

I, um, I wanna come back to something you, you talked about, um, you were the founder of the Los Angeles campus of the Chicago School of

Rachel Taylor: 28:21

Yeah.

Jonathan: 28:22

Uh, which as I understand is the only PhD program in ABA in Los Angeles what are you most proud of from that experience?

Rachel Taylor: 28:31

You know, uh, I am most proud of the fact that I just walked out of a bathroom stall and was washing my hands and someone yelled out, that's my most favorite professor. I know that's awkward, but seriously, and that in the moment someone else at another stall said, is Rachel Taylor in here? Like, it was a really funny, and when that person came out, it's a very famous professor, and I said, I didn't even talk yet. How did you. There's a ridiculous number of professors here. How did you know that person was taught? It's not that I was the favorite. It, that it, the way they worded that was my favorite. They did some sentence that made it clear that I'm no longer a professor. Uh, and so yeah, this is where I'll come back to the love of our very small, no longer small. And a bunch of us are saying, it's like we're right in the brink of it. Now we're five, 10 years from now, they're the crew that we all used to know each other are like, who is that? Like, what do I care? And that's fine. Like it's not needed to do good work that we all know each other like we used to. But um, I will say though, it, it's nice to see that follow through, um, in that, that community and that that's there in academia. I am seeing that now in autism services. Right? That wasn't like that before. It wasn't like everyone from the major places were all hanging out with each other outside of a. A conference. And even if they were, they, the people that were there were there for their research protocols primarily. There wasn't as much of a practitioner focus. So you weren't even really having the opportunity to sit down with another agency and talk a, you had the opportunity, but you were gonna talk about your research protocols. So anyway, my most proud thing from starting in and it, I didn't launch the whole campus, just the ABA department, was being able to, to bring the opportunity to the people I mentioned earlier that, that I know wanted that PhD. And I, and it's so different now. You don't, you don't need it right. Functionally. Right. You don't. And I know a lot of professors that'll openly tell their students, you're gonna spend another$50,000 and you're gonna possibly make just as much money as someone with a master's degree. Right. And even our old spiel of, the only reason to get the PhD is if you wanna be a professor, cuz you don't even need that anymore. In a lot of places that you teach now you can teach with the master's degree level, but. That for me. And actually one of the CABA employees, everyone was laughing at me this weekend. They're like, you're the only agency owner that throws a dinner with 25 employees and, and you're all cheering that someone just got accepted to a graduate program this fall and they're leaving CABA. You just threw like a whole dinner and a party. I'm like, well, the dinner in the party was for all the employees. I will admit that. They're like, but that, they're like, but your speech on, like celebrating this person. So it's, it's that academic connection that I think needs to stay in our field and, and I'm proud that I was able to contribute to that for people that were working in the field. And I'm proud that now we continue to be able to bridge that gap that can so readily happen where academia goes so far away from practice and that there's people now that you're gonna get your PhD in B and analysis is just cuz you wanna geek it out for me. You know, I mean, not really, there's other opportunities but. And so as long as you're gonna take that next level of kingdom to geek them to, to keep inspiring and helping people, I think it's exactly what our field needs right now. So I, I worry a bit that we're starting to divide more. And so I hope that we can bring it back together and I'm, I'm proud that I was able to be a part of something that was specifically for people who work full-time in the field. And it's still there now this many years later and, and doing great, you know, so, um, I think they're a little too big though. I'll openly say that. I have no problem saying a lot too big, and that's why I stepped down. when they wanted to put the PhD online. A lot of people know my story. I, I went all out. I was like, no way. and I think I delayed that by my dramatic exit, by like a good three to five years. Yeah. I'm not sure what that did, but, but it made me feel better at the moment that I was standing up for what is now That's different though too. Uh, Endicott and everything I'm hearing it's a wonderful program, you know, and they're primarily online, so it's changing. You just gotta keep an eye on what's working and not working and, um, I think the programs that are accepting a ton of students at really high rates, uh, are, are gonna see problems and the data are showing that, you know, I'm not a a publisher as much anymore, but I'm happy other people are putting it out there and showing, the pass rates and talking about these issues. I've never seen as many open faculty positions in my life as I've seen just, and I'm not looking just, just when it comes across my feet, I'm like, this is unprecedented. And so, I don't know whose data people are operating off of. The, the demand curves are showing the university systems. This is needed, but it seems to be evident. So I hope someone will go and publish this soon and show it. So it's gonna be interesting, you know.

Jonathan: 32:59

You know, I was just at APBA, I saw Dr. Jim Carr, um, you know, c e o of B cv who, who did his presentation. He's always phenomenal. Oh my gosh. I've enraptured every time he presents. But he showed, de-identified like the top 10 programs by number of applicants in the pass rates. And I think two of the 10 had a passing, like, like an A, B, C, D, E, F, like a passing score. And it was like a couple of'em were in the 30% range. So, um, like my next question is, if you could wave your magic wand and change one thing about masters and PhD programs in a b a, what would that be?

Rachel Taylor: 33:37

And I know I was ready for this and I'm not. Why? Because my, I want my answer to be more appropriate. Faculty student ratios, uh, meaning smaller. but I just heard, and I don't wanna be able to Glooms day, doomsday Glooms day, um, over the weekend. I, I don't know where this data comes from, but it's a reliable source that told me, actually, it's a former professor of mine that said, so I'll be a little biased and trust there but mentioned some data that came out that they were serving faculty members and behavioral analysis and listed all the different types of, uh, functional behavioral assessments and functional analysis that you can do, uh, you know, latency based, blah, blah, blah. Just went through a bunch of different kinds and asked them to rank which ones they were familiar with. Familiar with, and these were faculty members and it was like certain types of FBAs came up that they were saying they weren't familiar with. Right. It would be one thing if you said that you've conducted a lot or had experience with. So honestly, I don't know John, you know, I waived my magical wand I'd I'd say, I guess I'd have to add on after this weekend. Now I would've said to you, to this point, smaller student faculty ratios and now I'm gonna say smaller student faculty ratios with greater oversight, which makes me so scared. Cause I'm not trying to become like a police state, and that does come back to accreditation. That does come back to bridging the gap between the certification and accreditation bodies and. That does come back to a whole bunch of fun politics that have been going on for a very long time. And I have nothing but respect for Dr. Carr. Uh, uh, he actually started the UN n R Early Childhood Autism Center, which I was the assistant director for when he left. So right there, these old school stories of all the connections. So I owe Jim part of my career, and I called Jim as the KBA Conference Chair when, uh, when the B A C B made their decision to no longer have the certification be international. Because as the chair I was then dealing with some potential strife with an upcoming presentation that we had jointly between A B A I and, and A P B A. I said potential strife. I'm not saying anything. Um, and Dr. Carr was phenomenal. So I think what we need is to continue to support, uh, our membership organizations and our accrediting and certification bodies, and, uh, ensure that the leaders are. Uh, walk in the walk and talk in the talk and listening. And, uh, Dr. Carr's an amazing example of that. Um, and we are the certificates. We are the ones paying for the accreditation. We are the people that can drive these processes. These are not the big bad police that are on top of us if it's going wrong. It's our voices as students, professors, owners, practitioners, and certificates to make those changes. So I, I'm gonna go with smaller student faculty ratios and leave it at that. Cause I don't know what oversight should look like, but, uh, that's where we need to start.

Jonathan: 36:31

You're embarked now, Rachel on a, a new venture, kava consulting. You talked a little bit about, um, and I wanna highlight one of the things that you are really passionate about is this idea of clinical standards versus professional standards. Tell me more.

Rachel Taylor: 36:46

I appreciate you asking Jonathan, cuz I know I'm, I'm, uh, always screaming about it. Right. CABA Consulting was, uh, something that we had started to think about early on before the pandemic, and right when we thought we were settling down, went to launch again. And a whole other wave of things have come. So, as I joke, I'm CABA Consulting Consulting for CABA right now, but, um, originally, and uh, actually there's an amazing website that we still stand by, but I haven't done like a, I've done a soft launch, but CABA Consulting first came out because it was a, are you a ABA agency that wants to expand your scope of practice in terms of your settings and across ages? Cuz that's what CABA has done and we can come in and help you. And in particular, kava was the first agency to open ABA based community living homes in the state of California. So similarly, we were the only one that had an adult day program that was, uh, based on aba. And so we knew as people needed to diversify their. Clients, their funding sources that we've got pretty much the best track record. So CABA Consulting launched for that purpose. Then over time, we've done a lot of work in what we call the risk driven approach. Now we call it the RDA and I, I won't get too much into that, but if you're interested, any of the links that are available, um, you can find me talking about it and knock on wood and article's coming out pretty soon. And, and the risk driven approach is actually based on the last sentence of the intro to the BAC B'S latest ethical update, uh, which says, our job as practitioners, as behavioral analytic practitioners is to always put clients' interests first, to maximize desired outcomes and minimize risk. And what we always came back to is that's not just risk to a given procedure, meaning traditional risk benefit analysis that's included in there. We have to conduct risk benefit analysis. But if you really take the sentence in, maximize desired outcomes and minimize risk, What we started realizing is that's different to say risk to desired outcomes. And we had a bit of a shift that I've noticed over the months that we've been presenting on it more and talking about it more. Again, I kind of just have to lay the seed for people that are hearing it the first time and I hope you'll just kind of reflect on it and take it in. Cuz we definitely have data now to even demonstrate that over time, the more you start to think about it, you can see how it quickly changes the narrative. It changes the narrative, both for case conceptualization, right? So what I just said, it's client interest first and that's a whole other podcast, right? But if you stop and say, are we constantly maximizing desired outcomes and minimizing risk? In other words, is every decision that's being made minimizing risk to desired outcomes? Not just a harm and danger in everything we think of? Cuz that's not the definition of the word risk, by the way. Is it minimizing risk to desired outcomes, which includes the harm and danger? I don't think any of those things are a desired outcome, right? We took that approach and flipped it in terms of how we're supporting our staff. So when I talk about our clinical standards and our professional standards, OB used to say clinical and admin and performance. And when you break all those terms down it, it gets messy. So we're just gonna go clinical case conceptualization, clients performance, staff performance, which includes their case conceptualization, right? That also includes turning their reports on time, meeting their billable requirement, conducting the field supervision hours they're supposed to conduct, having their client files up to date. And our model now, we realized it's wonderful to say, okay. I'm gonna embrace the minimum. Our certifications are set at minimum standards. Our accreditation is set at minimum standards. That's okay, that's their job. Sure. Should we continue to work on trying to increase our standards, improve our requirements? Sure. I, I was in academia long time. I can tell you how long it takes to move the needle on those systems. All right, so for now, here we are, and that's their job. Okay. So what's our job now as providers? Right? Our job as providers, I like to think is not only to support them, to make sure that they're continuing to meet the minimum standards, but that they're exceeding those. But more importantly, that we're reminding our staff, and a lot of them, thank goodness being my former students, know that I'm not just trying to be a harsh business bureau. Those minimum standards are your credential, meaning as your employer. your certification tells you that you need to submit your reports on time. Your certification tells you that you need to complete all these hours. Your certification tells you your client files need to be up to date. The one thing it doesn't tell you is to meet your billable requirement. Okay? Let's just put that one to the side and say that's the one thing in your JD that is not part of your certification. So what, the way we built Cabo is to say, look, We are here to support you to meet those minimum standards, and I'll give you access to people with increased expertise. I will give you a committed meeting at least once a month that has nothing to do with your client. I don't care about your billable, that you're sitting one-on-one with someone and you're doing a performance review and you're looking at all of your responsibilities, and I will make sure you have that there for you. But here's the bottom line. It is your John for your certification to be at that minimum. Now, if you are not in our entire performance system at CABA is based on this now and what we do at CABA Consulting when we help other companies. You need to come into that advisor every day. We call'em a boss, behavior operations support specialist. Eh, you need to come into this person that I have here not to direct you and tell you what to do on an org chart. They're, they're actually called, um, executive advisors at Cabo. We even took rid of the senior behavior analyst title cause we were like, they're just there to support you. We're maintaining a commitment that we're giving you access to supports what you said you wanted, and every other ABA company we're doing it. You need to come in and say, I didn't meet my minimums this month. Now you need to say, do you feel that you can or cannot next month? And why do you feel you're at a high risk? A moderate risk? A low risk? So taking that same notion and embedding it across both the way they approach their case conceptualization, and now their own performance has just come in handy for us. But it made me have to realize that we'd still gotta separate it though, right? But we have to have the same foundation. We can't have, here's your clinical job and here's your admin job. It's just the days of showing someone an org chart and they're gonna come in and be like, here's my position on an org chart. Here's the person I'm supposed to report to and, and I respect this whole model, and I totally understand how this one thing I did today has all of these massive, massive implications. Or as it be around, let's say, interlocking contingencies, then they're not gonna do that. We're gonna have to lay it out in a way that they're an integral part of the process. And I think separating out and explaining to them from day one, This is your clinical performance. This is case conceptualization. This is your job that you're certified in. Here are your performance standards. By the way, that's also a lot of part of your certification. And, and I'm here to help you, but there's only so long I'm gonna help you to turn a report in on time. And that's helped us be able to keep clinicians, supporting clinicians, because now I'm not as worried that that clinician is suddenly putting on some other type of clinical hat and wanting to help them through, Nope, hr, hr, but not harshly. You're not an expert in supporting someone that can't meet the minimum requirements of their job. They might need an accommodation. And for a while we were definitely seeing the BCBAs. You know, I, I joke with the ACT people. I'm like, you can't heap flex all of that. They need to go to hr. Like, you know, like, like, this is not your job. So I hope I didn't take too long on that one, Jonathan.

Jonathan: 44:04

I think, I think that's a really, it, it's a refreshing look. I like the idea that, um, number one, like that reinforcement of certification is a minimum standard or accreditation is a minimum standard. So true. And the idea of incorporating professional standards, like part of your certification is the work that you do to allow your clients to. getting services Well, Rachel, what's one thing every ABA business owner should start doing and one thing to stop doing?

Rachel Taylor: 44:29

I would've never answered this question till today, believe it or not. Uh, because I am such a being analyst, obviously, if it hasn't come through strongly or I'm like, I, I don't know. It depends on the variables that have contributed to your performance at that point in time, your history, your current context. Like that's my view on the world. So I have a hard time with these traditional, like, you know, questions that way. However, I will say now, 100%. Uh, stop approaching everything with respect to that title that you have, whatever it might be, and start approaching it as if you are a consultant. Uh, and that has been the most powerful thing for me. so I don't know if it'll be a successful for other people though. So that's where the dork in me still has to come out and say, I'm not sure, depending on your learning history and your context, but for me it's been world changing. Um,

Jonathan: 45:17

Do you think that's a function of sort of being able to take a more dispassionate, I won't say third party, but a dispassionate approach? Or is it mindset change? What is

Rachel Taylor: 45:25

I know, right? funny you said that cuz it's not dispassionate. it's simply the function of knowing that I'm not making a decision about whatever's happening right now. I need to go tell other people whether or not I think they should be making that decision. I'll make it that, that simple. So I guess that's why I wanna quickly tell other people if they jump to it, they'll go through that faster than I did. coming in with that attitude of thinking you're not, and that you have to describe this to someone else, it does change your process. There's no doubt. You know, I mean I was even playing around with it at one point. I'm like, you know what if I started doing it with my almost 20 year old and my eight year old, right? Like I'm not really the mom here. It's not my choice. I'm gonna listen. And I actually kind of have to with the 20 year old, cuz he has four parents and a girlfriend that he's moving in with. actually, it's probably timing for me too, now that I Thank you for this self therapeutic moment here, Jonathan, that I'm reflecting.

Jonathan: 46:11

Rachel, I see you on the self therapeutic moment, and I, I wanna raise you on this because you are Congratulations. A newly elected cast board member. Your term starts later this spring. So tell me, are you gonna approach your cast board member position from that consultant mindset, from a board member's mindset or from something else Entirely.

Rachel Taylor: 46:32

And I love you just said that cuz we didn't say this to each other earlier. Uh, I, I think I might have rubbed one of the board members the wrong way this weekend. So, so he just reminded me. So let's end on a funny story. I'll make it quick. my first election I ever ran in was in, uh, 2000, uh, three or four. Uh, and it was for the, international Association for Behavioral Analysis Executive Council, uh, the student rep role. and that vote was international. I ran against someone from Ireland actually. Uh, and when I got, I got the position, uh, and when I got on the board, the current president was the department chair of my grad program. And I happened to work for her, uh, as well. I wasn't in her lab, but I. Funny enough, it's Linda Hayes. I ran the satellite master's programs that Linda Hayes ran for u n r. So that was my admin job with her, essentially. So I was really excited cuz I was like, I'm going into a three year term and the president's my, like, you know my buddy, right? I'm on the, I'm the one who had to go get the rental car whenever, whatever airport we landed at, regardless if I was going to the meeting, right? Like I was her assistant and she looked right at me and I revisited this conversation with her this weekend actually. She looked right at me and she said, congratulations Rachel. Yeah. So you have a year now that you're not allowed to say anything. And I'll never forget, and for years I would, and I mentored a lot of students to run for that actual election. Antonio Harrison was in my class, Megan Acklin, if there's anyone listening that knows these guys. And, uh, we went through the same thing. And I said, I wished at the time she had told me, or the dorky behavior analyst would say, she attacked the variables as to why that was a lesson I needed to learn. She didn't. All right. And I give her a hard time for that directly, but. Me rubbing a board member the wrong way is one of the other board members very excited. I think it was like, okay, this is another fresh blood. I won't say who it is, but you can figure it out if you think about it, if you know it. I love this person to death and, and I said to this person, I'm just excited. I'm excited to listen and learn. So to answer your question, my first thing is how am I gonna approach it? Right? And this I could, this one got I think, a lot joking. We didn't really rub each other the wrong way. And I think this person was joking in their reaction, but it was real. They kind of went. What do you mean you're gonna listen? Like as if I have so much to contribute right away, I should come out through the gate. Right. And it, but it was kind of a really funny moment. I found myself reflecting it over the weekend and I grabbed them like a day later and I said, okay. In my defense, you know, and I told this story quickly and I said, this is an overly trained response of me, but it's a balance. Don't worry, I got your back. Like, I don't know what drama I'm coming. Joking. I don't think, I think it was more of a funny, like, there's nothing going wrong from what I've heard, it's an amazing organization and they work very, very well together. But I tell that story cuz it's true. I don't know, I haven't thought through the consultant hat yet. I think that's on me all the time now. But I am an elected voice. I, I recognize that. So that's a little different. Right. But that is kind of the same right. When you think about it. So I will look to the membership as you elected me and I'm a voice and my job is to take what you think to my peers now at the same time. Yeah. Obviously as a board member allowed to have your own opinion and people elected you knowing that you were gonna make, uh, Contributions based on that. So, uh, I think I sent you an email that I sent to, I think less than a dozen. We have 20 something people. Actually, I, I didn't do that much. I'll look at the numbers later, but I'm pretty sure I, I didn't send 20 emails cuz I was scared if everyone answered me I wouldn't answer them. So I just picked a few names, like people I had seen and that is what I said. I said I'm excited to bring my less known, skillset to this less known if you follow me in the socially media, whatever world or at conferences, um, which is my listening. And I, I've been trained to do that a long time. So all the cast board members do a wonderful job doing that. I know that I listen from a different vantage point, um, having the mixed history as an agency owner of different sizes and all of that. So that is what I wanna bring to the table initially, cuz I don't know this world, and I have a tendency to reference, research articles and people as if everyone I'm talking to is from that. And so I've gotta. Remember, and I'm excited for that. And I, I thank Lori for, uh, it was four years ago and I just was glancing as I was coming up the escalator at Calaba at the restaurant that's outside. And I got emotional and I told Dan, Dan Unum walked up and had the pickle with him. And, uh, sorry for podcast members, I have no idea what we're talking about. Um, uh, I told Dan that Lori came to my panel on running community living homes in Kwa and invited me to speak at the last summit, uh, four months before the pandemic. So fall of 2019. And I had never been. And uh, the last summit is not formally connected with CASP, but I tell this story because it was my first time and now 25 years in the field, um, of walking in a room and realizing, oh my gosh, my geek crew is not here. These are all parents and policy makers and business people. These are people making massive decisions involving billions of dollars, and they all really love aba. And I was a little confused as to why I was there at first, and then it dawned on me, oh, Ryan turned 18. Got it. Like, you know, I was like, and they all love it and they don't know what it's supposed to look like. and I'm very grateful for that story. I think I was, I was getting a little low, believe it or not, before the pandemic, which is sad to admit. And it reminded me, that's how I started. I'm the chick who saw flyer posted on a wall from a powerful mom at my college that said, will you come help my kid with autism? And I had no idea what ABA was, but I knew what autism was and this sounded like an amazing mother. And that's where the work happens, you know? So I'm honored to be a part of that side, but, and honored to talk to you, man. And it's fun to see you playing around with everybody too. I think it's so funny. I'm gonna talk to you like a published Java person, like it's Jonathan Mueller. What do you mean? Haven't you read all of his research? Like, I mean, that's how I think, like, I'm like, oh, that's not research. Got it.

Jonathan: 52:05

Uh, so powerfully said, Rachel, where can people find you online?

Rachel Taylor: 52:09

You know, the best thing is honestly, to keep going to Kava. I'd love to say it's, uh, kava consulting.com, but, uh, if you go to the Center for Applied Behavioral Analysis, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. My Facebook is just never, I had never seen social media until six years ago. I'm still trying to figure it out. So, uh, I accept Facebook friend requests and, now apparently my Instagram is even open, so feel free. I don't even know what I'm doing. So I'm myself no matter where I'm at. So any of those, please come. And, uh, yeah, and I guess I, I guess I had done a soft launcher. The first one I made it sound stronger about. If you're interested in Kava Consulting, please, I'm, I guess I'm ready to start, which is odd, but, I'm excited to try and help more people CABA stabilizing. So if there's anything we did right, and I can help other people do. That's what, that's all I know how to do. So you keep doing this though, man. This is so much fun and it's fun to see the amazing voices you're bringing. I just make fun that you didn't let me tell my getting punched in the face story like you let Molly tell and Darren and stuff. So thanks a lot. I'm, I

Jonathan: 53:08

Well. Alright Rachel, we can incorporate it here, but are you ready for the hot take questions?

Rachel Taylor: 53:12

I think so, but I, I don't even remember anymore, but go for it. Yeah.

Jonathan: 53:16

All right. You're on your deathbed. What's the one thing you wanna be remembered for?

Rachel Taylor: 53:20

I have absolutely no idea and I love it that, I don't know true

Jonathan: 53:25

What's your most, what's your most important self-care practice.

Rachel Taylor: 53:27

sleep.

Jonathan: 53:29

I amen to that. You have a favorite song and or music genre.

Rachel Taylor: 53:33

I don't, I used to be hardcore punk rock, hardcore gothic. Then I was, oh yeah. Blue purple hair all black. Most of my life I did walk down the aisle to madness by muse on this last marriage. So there you go. Okay. We did. So go with that

Jonathan: 53:48

Rachel, I think I'm gonna need to see a picture of the goth Rachel

Rachel Taylor: 53:51

They're out there. See, I'm telling you that,

Jonathan: 53:54

Heck yes. That is awesome. What's one thing you tell your 18 year old self?

Rachel Taylor: 54:00

uh, you know, I don't have an answer to this one either. I tell my 18 year old self that your 18 year old self. You know? I know. It's just, there's nothing I would say differently or say, here's what you gotta do. I just, I don't, I don't have anything. I don't even know what to tell the eight year old I made, you know? So, uh, I don't know. You know,

Jonathan: 54:20

Well, you could only wear one style of footwear. What would it be?

Rachel Taylor: 54:23

flip flops.

Jonathan: 54:25

Nice.

Rachel Taylor: 54:26

at the beach. Now let me be clear. Flip flops. Yeah, she went full circle.

Jonathan: 54:33

Rachel has been so much fun. Thank you for coming on the pod. I appreciate you.

Rachel Taylor: 54:37

Appreciate it.