Episode 73: Stephen Donaldson: Renaissance Man & Catalyst Co-Founder

Look up "Renaissance Man" in the dictionary and you'll see Stephen Donaldson: behavior technician, technology entrepreneur, founder of Catalyst, attorney, COO and more. His life mission is to solve hard problems in our field ... while sharing his wisdom with ABA providers as he goes. Enjoy, kind listener!

Resources

• Stephen on LinkedIn
• Stephen co-founded and was COO of Catalyst data collection software
• He's the founder of ABA Ops, helping to optimize ABA practices

Building Better Businesses in ABA is edited and produced by KJ Herodirt Productions

Intro/outro Music Credit: song "Tailor Made" by Yari and bensound.com

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Transcript

Jonathan: 0:30

My guest today is Stephen Donaldson Esquire. Stephen has spent the past 12 years in aba, starting as a frontline therapist, then co-founding Data Finch Technologies of Catalyst Fame earning his law degree. Then serving as Chief Operating Officer and General Counsel at Data Finch in the years that followed Stephen and his co-founder successfully sold and exited Data Finch in 2018. Uh, and Steven is now the founder and c e o of a b, a Ops consulting. Stephen, welcome to the pod dude.

Stephen Donaldson: 0:59

Thanks for having me. Good to be here.

Jonathan: 1:03

All right, so I gotta ask you, cuz you are the first official, practicing attorney as the Esquire that, I've had on the pod, so I gotta ask about the rumors about law school. Is it true that in years one, two, and three, they literally scare you to death in year one, work you to death in year two and then bore you to death in year three?

Stephen Donaldson: 1:23

Yeah, that's certainly holds true. I think part of the reason the first year is so scary is because it's so different from most things anyone else has ever done. Uh, grad school is always tough. It's always a step up from undergrad. Um, but law school is really competitive and this is kind of a behavior analytic discussion. We, we could get off on a tangent, but, um, you know, they grade on a bell curve, so not everyone can do well. your judged against your peers, there's only so many a's and so many B's that are gonna go around. So whether or not that's a good. Evaluator of someone's proficiency with a subject? Uh, probably not. I mean, if you know it, you know it, and everyone should be able to make an A if they know it really well. But that's not how it works. So it, it scares you because not only is the material dense and you know it's a lot of work, but you realize that everyone around you is a sniper. I mean, everyone around you wants for you to go down so that they can be lifted up. Um, so yeah, that's the first year is sort of navigating what that's like and, and you know, how to develop new study habits, blah, blah, blah. Um, year two is definitely, they, they amp it up. So once you get the hang of it in year one, we're gonna turn the heat up a little bit. And, uh, the, the coursework is more difficult, but you've got the hang of it, so it's doable. And then year three, typically you, at least for the second semester of year three, you know where you're gonna work. You've got an offer with either a firm or a company or whatever it is you're gonna do. So it, it gets boring because it doesn't matter anymore as long as you don't flunk everything. You've got a job. And that's typically how it works. I will say, where I went to law school, at Washington and Lee, they developed this specialty program in the third year because they wanted to combat that. So your third year is spent in practicums, which is more like med school. super helpful. you actually spend time under supervision with real lawyers doing real legal work instead of just sitting in a classroom. So I thought that was great. I'm glad they're, they're still doing it today. I think that most of the graduates would say it's been really successful and they feel better prepared when they come outta law school. So I hope more schools start doing that. I, I think it's. Uh, we could beat the boredom and have better lawyers when they graduate if there were more practical experience. I would say, I think my school did a really good job with it, and I think it's caught some attention.

Jonathan: 3:51

I love the idea of the practicum and just the hands on knowledge. I gotta say two reflections. One is, Man, a bell curve. Look, I, I'm not, I'm passionate about education as an outdoor educator, but I, I don't know the theory and philosophy, et cetera in education, but just like you can only get so many people, feels like it goes against this behavior analytic idea of set the bar and then reward everyone who exceeds that, that bar, right? I, and it reminds me of Jack Welsh in the 1980s. Remember the famous, uh, GE. CEO who had this literally the policy was called like rank and yank. That is you forced rank everyone in the entire organization top to bottom. And every year you, you know, pull out the, the bottom seven or 10%. I don't know if that contributes to psychological safety. So, ah.

Stephen Donaldson: 4:33

Yeah, every behavior analyst I've talked to about this, has said the same thing. Like, that's ridiculous if a hundred people in the class can get an A on the test, and because they all know the material that well. Then a hundred people should get an A And as a law school you should say, look how great we are. A hundred people got an A on this test. it's cuz they all know the material. Um, but that's just, that's not how it's ever worked with law school. It starts with the lsat, it starts with the application process and all the way through, uh, you're ranked against your peers and I was able to develop some, some of my best friends come from law school. Uh, so it didn't keep us from being friends and being friendly, but you know, that's the environment where you look around and you're like, I wonder how well that guy's doing? Or, you know, that girl looks like she's really nailing this test. And that starts to make you nervous, cuz you realize the better she does. The better he does, the better. You know, I, it's gonna be harder for me to, to do well. So, um, I'm, I don't think, I don't think it works great. I realize that GE can't have 10,000 employees who are all stellar, uh, because maybe they don't need that many employees. So at some point you gotta figure out a way to just start, you know, culling the herd. But I don't know. It just, it feels icky. I'm with you. It just doesn't feel right.

Jonathan: 5:51

Well, Malcolm Gladwell, you wrote Outliers, right? So many terrific books. Um, He's so good. He's got a podcast called Revision Revisionist History and they actually have an episode where he talks about how ineffective the LSATs are as a measure of whether or not you should get into law school. I'll drop a link of the show notes cuz it's so good. It's so funny, Stephen, cuz now I'm looking back at like my rickety b. And I'm like, dude, we were all doing project work and it was like kumbaya and it, it felt very different. but like this point of, I've always felt like education is less around knowledge. Right? Knowledge is almost commodity these days, right? what's important is like the critical thinking, and it's the, the beauty of whatever kind of masters you get, whether it's in behavior analysis or education or a law degree or mba, who cares is like how you. Develop those critical thinking and analysis skill. Doesn't that feel like what you need to be successful in life?

Stephen Donaldson: 6:45

Yeah, and experience matters too. I mean, the, the more I interact with people of different education levels and different experiences, the more I find that if you just get smart, capable people in a room together, um, they can do really good work and. Maybe not all of them have a graduate degree. Maybe not all of them have 10 years of experience doing what you're looking for, but they've got something they can draw upon if they know how to do that, right. So I think that plays very well into your critical thinking. Um, point there. If you might be a recent graduate from college and have no working experience whatsoever. But if you know how to tap into whatever experiences you have had, conversations you've had with people, just understanding of some subject matter, it goes a long way. And there's lots of people with advanced degrees that I would not want to work with because I don't think they think critically. They think like a textbook told them to. And what makes them any different from the other person who read that same textbook at that point, just find me the person who read that book. And they're gonna come up with the exact same answer. Um, and I think MBA programs get a bad rap sometimes because of that too. You know, the, the higher, it seems like the, the more prestigious the MBA program law schools too, they tend to sort of put drones out of the same ilk. Right. at least that's the reputation for some of them. And I just, I don't know that that adds a ton of value to. Individual projects where you may need someone who can think critically. Um, so I'm with you. I think what matters most is can you tap into something that other people around the table aren't tapping into? Can you analyze something critically? Can you think of a solution? Can you bring something to the table? And maybe it is something you learned in that first year class somewhere. Um, but if you can. You know, call upon that and find a way to make it work in the scenario you're in now. That's what really matters. You know, it's not rote memorization. What do you do with it?

Jonathan: 8:52

Right. Absolutely. Well, Steven, you co-founded an extremely successful ABA software business in Catalyst. and by the way, for many of my years when I was at Trumpet Behavioral Health years ago, we used Catalyst, as our data collection tool. So very familiar with it. and it's, become a main day across the industry. But tell me, Stephen, what are the highest highs and, and what is the lowest low of that journey for you?

Stephen Donaldson: 9:17

Well, let's get the low outta the way first. Cuz I, it probably, most people would say this, but there were times, uh, I think in every organization where you realize that some body's not a good fit. so the low is always for me. Having to let somebody go, um, for one reason or another. You know, the budget's not there. Whatever they were good at, we're not doing anymore. We, we changed directions, we pivoted to something else, or there's a performance issue. I had really good colleagues, Janet Lund, uh, one of those who really cares a lot and is very good at, um, shaping performance in. The workforce, right? That's obm is her thing. Uh, and she's very good at it. She did that Kadiant after she left, uh, data Finch. I think we invested a lot in our people. we were not one of those organizations where we'd say, you were laid today, don't bother coming back. That's not how we operated. Um, we, we put a lot into investing into development for people and helping them if we felt like there was something that needed to be changed. But sometimes that doesn't always get you where you need to be. So the low for me is always when you have to have the conversation with someone that this just, this isn't a good fit anymore. Uh, and, you know, we're gonna part ways. That's, for me, it's always gonna be the low in any, in any organization, you just, you never want to have that conversation. Um, doesn't mean it's not necessary and good for the organization as a whole, but anyway, it's not pleasant. Um, the high I can. Vividly. Remember the first time I walked into a room and there was a meeting happening that I didn't call, right? So it was the first time where I felt like the organization had taken on a life of its own. And for the other founders, we had been responsible for everything that had happened up until that point, right. Um, so there wasn't a meeting that we didn't know about because one of us was probably there. One of us had probably called it and organized it and thought about why we needed it, and here's how it fits into the bigger picture. And I distinctly remember walking past a conference room and we probably had 15 employees at this point. I mean, so small. You know, everybody knows everybody. Um, but there was a group of people gathered in a room and I popped my head in and I was like, what are you guys talking about? I don't remember exactly what the meeting was about, but they, they said, oh, we're trying to work through the, whatever this thing that we talked about last week. And I just thought to myself, what, you guys did this all on your own? Like none of us, none of the founders, none of the executives told you that you had to do this? No. We just figured the best thing to do would be to get together and talk through it and. All the people that I would've said needed to be there were there and they were all invested in whatever problem it was they were trying to solve. And what a tremendous moment, cuz it just felt like not only had we gotten a team of people together who were invested in the, the product and the company and the betterment of what we were doing, but they felt empowered to do it on their own. They didn't ask us like, Hey, we wanna call a meeting. We think one of you should be there. Coby, Janet, Chris, Steven. Can one of you guys be in the room with us? Uh, nope. They just said, we can figure it out. And, and I felt like we had empowered them as leaders to say, Joe, go do what you think is the right thing to do. We, you're here for a reason, right? So we hired you because we trust you and we think you can do a good job. Find the other people in this company that can contribute and go do it. And it was just a really powerful, powerful moment. So for me that that is a clear leader of the high points.

Jonathan: 13:04

Well, and that speaks to the. Tension that clearly you and Chris Coby and Janet, um, had in creating environment of psychological safety and empowering your team as you point out, that made them wanna have that kind of meeting to figure out and solve whatever was going on. So that's awesome. You know, one of the things Stephen I reflect on is just the importance of having partners when you start something right? And, you know, I've started. Three organizations and nonprofits 16 years ago, Sierra Nevada Journeys. It's going phenomenally well still these days. So I haven't been involved in more than a decade. And then send Behavior Partners and Element RCM every single time. Stephen, I had at least one, if not a couple partners. I can say this to you with 100% certainty. If I had not had partners, anything, those would all be failures. But tell me a little bit more of the importance of having the Coby and Janet Ls, the Chris, um, as founding partners. Was that important to you?

Stephen Donaldson: 13:56

yeah, of course. and I would echo exactly what you just said. I think the most successful organizations come from. A group of people who have different strengths, different weaknesses, play off of one another, can troubleshoot. You know, uh, the founding days of a company are never easy. I don't care how much money you raise, I don't care how small the product is or what niche it fits into. If you're just building one line of code and software, or if you're designing a little widget, it doesn't matter all the way up through to Uber and you know, TikTok and whatever else. these huge companies that we think of today. All of them started with just people floundering, trying to figure out how to make it work. I can guarantee it. Um, so having a support system there, people who have, different viewpoints from you, different ideas, it makes all the difference in the world. Cuz I'm not always right and. Make sure you cut this part out later. I'm not always right. but knowing that I trust the people in the room with me who can say, I don't, I don't think that's right. Let's try this instead. Or have we thought about this? Because again, I had some other experience that I can call upon where this was a useful tactic. All of that matters and. If you try and bear the burden of doing all of the things yourself, especially in a startup because you don't trust the people around you, or you don't have anyone around you, forget about it. I mean, you will, you'll swim in circles forever, and it's unlikely that whatever your vision is, will ever come true because they usually become bigger than you originally thought they would be. Um, and it's more than usually one person can handle, and it just, it, I don't know. It, it just has always felt to me like having the right people around you makes a big difference. And that's hard to do, right? I mean, it's hard to find the right people with the right expertise and you get along well. You trust each other. Um, but if you can make it happen, it's, it's magic.

Jonathan: 15:59

Yeah, that that diversity of viewpoints feels so critical, right? So it's not just group think, but you're actively challenging one another. Other and letting the best idea win. But let me a, you successfully transitioned. You sold, um, you and your partners sold Data Finch in 2018. Yep. What was that like then all of a sudden, and, and you worked subsequently at Therapy Brands. Um, but tell me more about what, what that was like.

Stephen Donaldson: 16:23

Um, so it's a mix of emotions. I think there's been a lot of M and A work in the ABA space in recent years. Um, I think we were still kind of on the front end of that in 2018. but anyone who's been through this can tell you it's a mixed bag of emotions. Uh, so personally, and I know this is true for Coby, Janet and Chris, there was this idea that we had, sold our baby, right? I mean, we had taken the time to build this thing and at the time we had, I don't know, 50, 60 employees, so it was pretty big. but we still small enough that we knew every single person who was there and, you know, understood how teams were working and we could point to any, any and everything that was happening every day in the office. Um, so it's tough to give up control. Uh, of that. But at the same time, we understood that the nature of ABA is such now that if you are not integrating well with other parts of how a practice operates, you're gonna limit yourself. And for us, therapy brands was a good choice because they were a platform, you know, portfolio company. So their, their vision was, Let's get all the tools that practitioners use and put them all at their disposal under one umbrella. Well, if money were no object, we probably would've ended up doing the same thing, but that's a whole different venture than we had ever gone into before. So I think for us, all of us would say it was tough to give up control because we had really put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into it. We'd never taken any outside capital before, so it was all organic growth. Um, so it was tough to give up control, but we really felt like it was a way for the company to hit the next level in and be part of the community in a way that we really had a vision for it to do that. So, so, yeah, I, I stayed on for another, 18 months or so. and sort of helped just the transition, and that, I think that made it easier for a lot of the employees. Several of us stuck around for a while, after the sale was complete. And that I think really helped a lot of our employees transition too, which was very important to all of us. We really wanted to make sure that no one felt like. Okay, well the, the four of them are outta here and we're just left here with this new boss. You know, like, that's not the impression we wanted to leave either. And, and therapy brands never asked us to do that. It was always, we really need your help to, to work this down the pipeline, the way we have it in our vision and. so all in all, I think it was a great experience professionally too. Um, I learned a lot about that sort of m and a side of things, which has come in very handy since then in the a b A world. I've, I've worked with several other companies who are either being acquired or they're thinking about acquiring somebody or they're merging with another practice, or they're thinking about what that might look like. And there's nothing quite like, just going through the experience yourself and, and you can look at a, a, an owner of a company and say, here's what it's gonna look like. It's not always pretty, it's a lot of documents, it's a lot of phone calls, it's a lot of due diligence. Um, but if you just want to know the truth, I've been through it and, uh, on both sides of it. So it, it's helpful to, um, I think to be able to call upon that experience.

Jonathan: 19:55

Well, let's fast forward Steven, cuz you started ABA Ops. Um, your current organization, cuz I know, I mean, you and I share this ultimate passion of just helping ABA practices become the best version of themselves. And, and I, I know you are so give back minded for our field, but you know, there are just a ton of legal statutes, regulatory frameworks, I mean, you name it, that it takes sometimes a really smart attorney to understand. So I'm curious, what are some of the common pieces of advice you've given ABA practices that they may not have considered?

Stephen Donaldson: 20:28

Yeah, so I think HIPAA's the biggest one, right? That's the one that I think makes most people in our field panic. They're very worried that some information's gonna get out that shouldn't have. And oh, you know, my employee keeps names and a binder in their car. What happens if their car gets stolen? And you know, there's that, all that stuff is real. That's a real consideration. Those are real threats to your organization. So I get a lot of questions about HIPAA compliance, um, and how to start to structure your practice in such a way that we can avoid some common pitfalls. Um, you know, I've told this to people before at presentations and on the phone, whatever, HIPAA's not built to be a gotcha statute. Um, and the government has never treated it like that. but it is absolutely meant to be the guardrails that keep an industry in check. Um, and ABA fits squarely into the industries they had in mind. Um, you know, behavioral therapy, medical practices, psychologists, all of that stuff fits well within the HIPAA regulation. So it's not something you need to panic about, but it's something you need to be aware of and plan for. And the earlier you start that, the better. Um, but it's never too late to just think about. What can we do even, even if we make small incremental changes, if we have a huge organizations with thousands of employees. If, if we need to make small, incremental adjustments, let's just start to think through what that will look like. And if we're a really small organization and it's just me, then, what can I do today to set myself up for success later so that I don't have to, you know, lose sleep over it So that I think HIPAA is the most common one. probably the one that I've, um, just keeps coming up again and again, no matter what size the practice is, no matter you know, where they are in their, in their journey.

Jonathan: 22:29

Yeah. Steven, I'm fond of saying compliance is an investment. It's not a cost. Cause you're gonna pay for it at some point, whether it's down the road in audit or getting caught into HIPAA or whatever the, the particular compliance issue is, you're gonna pay for it at some point. So if the best time to conform was when you started the practice, the next best time is right now. Right.

Stephen Donaldson: 22:50

Right. That's right. Or you just lose sleep over it. That's a cost too. I mean, if it makes you panic, then that's a cost, and you might not realize the toll because it's harder to quantify. But, you know, I wake up at night thinking about business things, I mean, it, I wish I didn't, I wish I could turn that off, but, If you're a small business owner, um, or even in charge of a large organization, if you're a leader somewhere, chances are, if you care about that organization, you're gonna wake up at odd times and think about something. If you can eliminate some of those things you think about, that pays benefits too.

Jonathan: 23:25

Oh, pay huge benefit. You know what this, uh, made me think is I think gap, you know, the generally accepted accounting practices should include an account code around psychological energy or something that like, actually allows you to quantify in a p and l what that up at night cost is. That is so true, dude. Well tell me, is there a specific legal cautionary tale that you've come across in our field? That other ABA practices can learn from.

Stephen Donaldson: 23:54

I honestly, I think data Finch and companies like it have helped a lot because just keep it on the HIPAA train, right. Um, If you are, and you should be, if you're concerned about how your data is managed, who has access to it, where it goes, where it is right now in the world, who's writing what down where, the best way to take care of that is to put some safeguards, institutional safeguards in place. Uh, not only are you mandated to do that by law, but. it will help you build a better practice that you can scale more efficiently if you start to think about those things. So I would say the cautionary tale has been try and find ways to get compliant in this example in a way that's also more efficient, right? So people tend to worry about, well, I need to get this thing in my organization, square. but that thing probably also relates to 12 other things that you're not thinking of. And if you just focus on this one, object, this one area of your practice, then you are probably missing a bigger picture that there's some other crumbling pieces somewhere that you need to keep an eye on, right? Um, so if you can take care of something with an efficiency, do it. And try and find something that will make your practice more efficient across the board. You can become HIPAA compliant and you can take better data, more efficient data, store it better. All of those things we tried to help people with when it came to data Finch And I think that's a good sort of cautionary tale. think of your practice holistically, right? there may be one piece that you're really concerned about, but chances are if you fix that, you've got a way to, raise the other ships in your harbor, so to speak.

Jonathan: 25:53

I want to stress this point, and that is the arc of any healthcare field. Is toward lower reimbursement rates, not higher reimbursement rates, which means if you are going to be successful, and oh by the way, the arc is also increasing, adherence to payer compliance and, and regulations, et cetera, meaning your costs are going up while you're at best, your reimbursement rates are staying the same. And so I think it's critical, Stephen, how you describe an opportunity to, um, Both put safeguards in place while also becoming more efficient because a, b, a practices, contrary to popular belief, it's really freaking hard to make money as an a, b, a organization, at least if you're doing it the right way,

Stephen Donaldson: 26:35

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan: 26:36

my humble opinion. And so you've gotta keep getting efficient, right?

Stephen Donaldson: 26:40

That's right. That's right. And it can, and that efficiency should solve. If it's a really good efficiency, it can solve a lot of different problems. Um, and tech is a big part of that. I've spent most of my career not just in behavioral health, specifically a, b A, but also at the intersection of how technology can solve the problems of the practice of aba. But I believe that, I think it's a fundamental truth. I mean, it works in so many other industries. It will absolutely work for ABA too, for the same reason. Technology's just, it's good at creating efficiencies and to your point, if payers are dictating reimbursement rates, if federal law dictates how we manage documents and, and how we do things in our practice. The, the best way to, to comply with all of those is to find some tool that will help you do it as efficiently as possible. The fewest mistakes, the fastest. You know, all of those things matter when it comes to the practice of ABA as it is today. Um, so I, you and I are in total alignment on that.

Jonathan: 27:50

Well, let me make one other build on that, Steven, and that is, What's our unemployment rate these days? Three and a half, some percent. It's really, really hard. I mean, it's always been hard in the a, b, a field finding, talented values aligned individuals. But I mean, think about it, if you're having to write down and transfer all of your notes every day, or you've got some position that does that into electronic forms so you can bill it, um, like use technology right? To, to just make your life a little bit easier. So that feels, that feels important.

Stephen Donaldson: 28:20

And you can't fail, right? at least this used to be the case. I realize now, you know, private equities kind of changed the game when it comes to starting new clinics. But it used to be 10 years ago that a clinic was just started by a person who was a behavior analyst. And they would say, I'm gonna start my, I'm gonna start a practice. I'm gonna hang a shingle and I'm gonna start seeing patients and I'll figure it out as I go. Um, You cannot scale that beyond a few employees, uh, unless you start to generate some efficiencies along the way. Uh, you just can't. You're either gonna do your employees a disservice because you're not focusing on them, or you are going to, uh, just let your practice get away from you and you'll have no idea what's happening. So you need technology if you're gonna scale in any way, shape, or form. Especially when it comes to the amount of data and records that a practice like an ABA practice has, there's just no way to keep up with it. If you're writing everything down on a piece of paper, not only is it not the best practice, but it's just not scalable. You just, you'll never, you'll never be able to, to grow very large if you keep up with things the way we used to.

Jonathan: 29:32

Well, and in my experience, there are even more, um, ABA practices starting now. Um, that is, you know, BCBAs who want to get out and get after it. I think that's a phenomenal thing. But your point is so well taken, right? What are the right people, processes and systems that are gonna allow you to scale and, and. Give you the best opportunity to accomplish what you set out to accomplish. and you actually, I, I know there's this quote, um, I remember that you said at one point, um, but you believe the most effective a b A practices are ones that operate efficiently and profitably without sacrificing clinical excellence, a balance many find hard to strike. Oh, I, I get goosebumps, Steven, cuz it's so true. So let me, let me lead that into, what do you think is one thing that every ABA business owner needs to start doing and one thing to stop doing.

Stephen Donaldson: 30:22

Yeah, so just to repeat, let's start with the notion that profitability is not the devil, right? Clinical companies can make money, they can make lots of money, and that doesn't make them bad Clinical practices, those are not binary. They're not mutually exclusive. So I believe every word you just said. Uh, and I think that's helped put into perspective several engagements that I've had with clients who they struggle with this notion that they can have a very profitable clinic, but also be service oriented. That's, you don't have to choose. You can absolutely be both. So, What I, just to touch again on a point that we've already made, I think the best clinical practices will start with the notion that they will not be able to control every single thing by themselves all the time. Find good people, find people you trust, and pour into those people and trust those people to do the right thing at the right time. With the right tools and empower them to do that. And then you can start focusing on things like, how do I make sure that my practice is still, meeting my expectations? Right? If I started practice by saying, I want the best service for any, that any 10 year old is gonna get in Arkansas. Okay, great. You're not gonna be able to focus on that and also focus on the nitty gritty of having 50 employees. I'm sorry, but it it's, it's one or the other. At some point, if you wanna be the person who says, this is my organization. I care about 10 year olds in Arkansas who have autism, great. That's a great mission. Find some people who believe that too. Empower them to do the right thing, put the right systems in place like we've talked about. Start with this notion that you will not forever be able to be the person in the room doing all the things all the time, and plan for that. I mean, let's just start with, you're gonna have employees. At some point, you're gonna have people, there may be people that work there that you've never met, depending on how big your organization gets, right? Doesn't mean that you can't still be empowering those people from behind the scenes because you've created an organization that just, it lives like that. it empowers people. All the way down through the chain, right? I mean, it just, it's an organization that's built to, to find good people, empower good people, and that way the, the leadership of your organization can focus on the mission. if the leadership is too focused on the operations, like the nitty gritty, then no one's got their eye on the ball. no one's thinking big picture. And that's where things can really start to, to get awry so, I would say, I guess those two things kind of play hand in hand. Stop trying to do everything all the time. If you're a small business leader or even a big business leader, I mean, if you work for a Kadiant or a Trumpet or Learn or whatever, those people know, they cannot be in every session. I mean, they don't know every employee at those organizations. I wouldn't think there's a lot of employees there. Or if you just own your own shop and you've got two, you know, behavior analysts that work for you. That's great, but let's start with this notion that you can't be all things to all people. Um, so if you wanna dedicate yourself to having this kind of practice with this kind of mission, then dedicate yourself to that and start empowering people, to do the operational stuff and the day-to-day stuff that will make that mission come true.

Jonathan: 34:05

All right, bro, I, I've got an analogy for you. I am in such violent agreement with what you just said. If we think about everyone who starts a practice or leads an a, b, a practice, they're superheroes, right? Clearly they're superheroes. Now, let me ask you this, which superhero in real life, or I guess fake real life with. Was Superman scalable? Could he make more super Superman? No. No. Was Wolverine scalable? No. There's one. Wolverine was Batman. No, there's one of

Stephen Donaldson: 34:36

They tried to do another one and it didn't work. So if I remember my teenage comic book years correctly.

Jonathan: 34:43

Bingo. But like this point is so relevant. Yes, as a practice owner, you are a superhero, and superheroes are not scalable. So you have to actively invest in your people, in your process, in your systems, empower and trust them to do the right thing. Um, so that's so well said. What, Steven, one of the many things I love about you, dude. You have a very dry sense of humor that I've got to see over and over, uh, and you're the father of teenage daughters. Uh, hit me with your best dad joke, dude.

Stephen Donaldson: 35:11

Um, alright, well this is actually one that I heard very recently, uh, at a Boxing Day party. So December 26th, uh, boxing Day in, in the uk. alright, so what is the difference between a well-dressed man on a bicycle and a poorly dressed man on a unicycle

Jonathan: 35:34

What's the difference?

Stephen Donaldson: 35:35

attire?

Jonathan: 35:39

Oh my. Oh yes. I wanna like it. That's so good.

Stephen Donaldson: 35:44

on two levels. See, they nailed it.

Jonathan: 35:46

I at tired. That's beautiful. Can I hit you with one,

Stephen Donaldson: 35:49

Yeah, please,

Jonathan: 35:52

Steven? When does a joke become a dad joke?

Stephen Donaldson: 35:59

uh, don't know.

Jonathan: 36:01

When it's a parent?

Stephen Donaldson: 36:05

Thanks. This has been great.

Jonathan: 36:07

All right. I, I hope everyone turns this podcast off right now. You should not be reinforcing us for these

Stephen Donaldson: 36:13

That's true.

Jonathan: 36:13

Um, but

Stephen Donaldson: 36:14

That's true.

Jonathan: 36:15

they make me feel alive. Where, where can people find you online? Man.

Stephen Donaldson: 36:21

Uh, so ABA ops is aba ops.com. Pretty simple. Um, and OPS stands for operations. Just kind of the short form for that. So I, I kind of consider that my Bailey Wick. Um, so, uh, aba ops.com. And there's a contact page if people have questions. And you know, if nothing else, I'm just happy to sort of talk about the state of play in ABA and, um, maybe something, some need arises from that. Maybe it doesn't, but I, I find these kind of conversations engaging, so anyone who's listening, feel free to reach out and, uh, if there's just something we can chat about when it comes to a b a, that's, that's great.

Jonathan: 37:00

I will drop a link in the show notes. And Steven, are you ready for the hot take questions?

Stephen Donaldson: 37:06

I am ready. Let's do it.

Jonathan: 37:08

You're on your deathbed. What's the one thing you wanna be remembered for?

Stephen Donaldson: 37:12

Uh, kindness. I want people to look back and say, uh, he took care of his people and he loved people and, uh, was kind to everybody, not just his people, but. Everybody. Um, if if that's true of me when I'm on my way out, then that's the life well lived.

Jonathan: 37:33

Beautiful, bro. You know what I like to say about kindness? Kindness is like confetti. You throw it up and out there and it always falls back on you too.

Stephen Donaldson: 37:41

That's right. That's right.

Jonathan: 37:43

What? What's your most important self care practice?

Stephen Donaldson: 37:46

So, uh, I've recently started going to the driving range like three or four times a week. I'm not a professional golfer. Uh, but I find that on top of whatever normal routine I already had with working out, walking the dogs, whatever I've just added this three or four times a week, I'm gonna try and get outside, get some vitamin D, swing a golf club and it just, I don't know, there's something about that sort of routine and just doing the same thing over and over. It's kind of mindless. Um, I've really, really enjoyed it. So I've been doing that for the last. I don't know, three, four weeks. I've just tried to get out as often as I can and uh, you know, and it's a hundred degrees outside. I'm in Atlanta, so when it's a hundred degrees outside, it might not be as pleasant, but it's been really nice in February.

Jonathan: 38:33

Love it and it goes to show your self-care practice can always be evolving. I think that's super cool, dude.

Stephen Donaldson: 38:38

Yeah,

Jonathan: 38:40

What's your favorite song and or music genre?

Stephen Donaldson: 38:43

so my favorite of all time is Prince. Uh, artist. Um, so that kind of spans all the genres. That's kind of what he's known for. Um, I saw him seven times live, including his last show before he died. He played at the Fox in Atlanta. Um, just him playing a piano by himself. He didn't even bring a band and it was as good as any show I'd ever seen him do. And, you know, a week later he is dead. So really, really glad I went to that show. Um, my favorite song. Though is not one of his, um, it is one for my baby and one more for the road. So I think Frank Sinatra has probably done the most, uh, popular version of that song, but I think it is the perfect song the way he did it. The, the lyrics, the way it just sounds like there's somebody in a bar playing an upright piano. There's no other instrumentation that's, you know, crazy choreographed. There's some strings in it, but. You know, it's, it's, it just sounds like the most personal song ever written, uh, about one of the most personal experiences that any of us can ever have. And it's, if you, if you haven't heard it, check it out. It's an excellent song.

Jonathan: 39:57

I have not heard it, and I am gonna be turning it on from my drive.

Stephen Donaldson: 40:01

just pour a whiskey and sit in a dark room and cry. Cause it'll get you there.

Jonathan: 40:07

If you could give your 18 year old self one piece of advice, Steven, what would it be?

Stephen Donaldson: 40:12

Um, invest in Amazon early? I think so. I think the trajectory of my life, I'm, I'm very happy with. So I don't, I, I can't see myself going back in time and saying, you don't do that cuz that screwed everything up. You're gonna want to end up on this path instead. I'm, I'm very happy with my path. I love this, the a, b, a community. I never thought when I was a kid, this is what I would be doing. I, I just, it wasn't on my radar. Um, but from the moment I started in it, I just love the people. I love the mission, I love the community. Um, it's so collegial and so life giving just to work in this field. So for my 18 year old self, I'd say keep doing what you're doing. It wouldn't hurt to have some Netflix stock. You know, when it hits Nasdaq, you're gonna want to take a look at it. So that'll just help every,

Jonathan: 41:12

Well, if you could only wear one style of footwear, what would it be?

Stephen Donaldson: 41:16

I think the, uh, I think the Cole Hans that look like sneakers on the bottom, but dress shoes on the top. Uh, the, the mullet of dress shoes, as it were. Um, I think that's the shoe I probably wear the most often, so I'll, I'll just go with that would be it. It kind of serves all the purposes, you know, you need to go to a funeral, then you got, you got your shoes on, and then you can immediately hit the club afterwards if, you know, if the funeral wasn't that depressing. I, I don't know why that ended up being the analogy, but here we are.

Jonathan: 41:48

Well, hey, the mullet. The mullet of shoes. I mean, that's a mic drop and where do we go from there? Except Stephen, thank you so much for coming on the pod and having this conversation and for sharing all of your wisdom. I appreciate you brother.

Stephen Donaldson: 42:01

Oh man, it's good to be here. Happy to do it anytime. Thanks, Jonathan.