Episode 71: Life After Selling Your Practice with Zach Dugger

What happens after you sell your ABA practice? Most ABA practice owners don't just ride off into retirement with a golden horse. Zach helped me understand the level of intention it takes to plan for life post sale. Enjoy, kind listener!

Resources Referenced:

Book: Blue Zones: https://www.bluezones.com/

Book: Rich Dad, Poor Dad: https://www.amazon.com/Rich-Dad-Poor-Teach-Middle/dp/1612680194

Building Better Businesses in ABA is edited and produced by KJ Herodirt Productions

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Transcript

Jonathan: 0:30

My guest is Zach Dugger. Zack is the founder, owner and CEO of Brain Trust Behavioral Health in Michigan, where he spent eight years, uh, before successfully exiting in 2021. He's now the host of the Freedom Founder Podcast. He's a real estate investor, franchisee, and founder of the Onfire Capital Group. Zach is a husband of 18 years, father of two incredible children. Zach, welcome to the pod, dude.

Zach Duggar: 0:54

Thank you. Glad to be joining you today.

Jonathan: 0:58

You know, we first met, I think it was a couple years ago in, in Covid, and we were in a mastermind session, which is like this phenomenal setup of sharing information, ideas that was, uh, hosted by Dr. Linda Leblanc and Dr. John Austin, both of whom taught it western Michigan, but it was sort of through, uh, through John Austin that we got connected. Now, as I understand, uh, you got your masters at Western Michigan. I don't know if you ever had a class, uh, from him or, or how you got to know John.

Zach Duggar: 1:24

No. Yeah, no, I, I never had a class from him, but it did get my master's at Western and I did have a class with Dr. LeBlanc and, um, very, very impressed with her. but the interesting thing was, uh, I had spoken with, her husband, Dr. Carr, and he had talked about music and how he and Dr. Austin had done some music together and they're playing a show locally at. Gosh, I think it was, I don't even know if it was called Old Dog Tavern at the time, but got to go and see that kind of an experimental jazz kind of sound. Very impressive. I would definitely, uh, I would definitely check those guys out. Again, I don't, I know that's not their primary thing, but, um, very impressed.

Jonathan: 2:05

Well, yeah, Dr. Jim Carr, who is the longtime, c e o of, uh, the Behavioral Analyst Certification Board. I've, I've gotta say here, I was fortunate to, I won't even say jam because Dr. Carr's at an entirely different level than I am, but he freakin' rips on the guitar. I have heard that John Austen rips all the bass too. music is just one of those things that like unites us and brings together's communities. So that's super cool that you had that, that interaction with them. Zach, well, you know, you founded Brain Trust Behavioral Health, Kalamazoo, Michigan. Mm-hmm. Um, you ran it grew it over the course of eight years. Um, what did you learn from that experience before successfully exit?

Zach Duggar: 2:45

Oh man. Uh, there's a lot that I learned. I, I did not have a background in business, so coming into this, I just had a strong desire for a few years prior to that, I had a friend and I, we were talking about different business ideas, joking around about a few of them that would never come to light. But I remember seeing this, it was supposed to be a threefold brochure that someone had written out for a group home, uh, that they were opening and it was written across the brochure, like you'd open it up and it was just written all the way across a lot of typos and, and I just thought, this person is opening a business. I think I, I can do that. I think I can do something. and so 20 13, 20 12, 12 13, um, Michigan Insurance legislation went into effect for a b a coverage. I was already contracting with. A local county community mental health. Um, so our state for Medicaid, it's all overseen by individual bodies, so like county specifically, and then regional entities and then at the state level. So a lot of red tape and bureaucracy, but it, that's how it good folded down into the, uh, treatment for, uh, the sub services that are available. I was already contracting doing a different type of service with them and I was approached about the idea. Starting a service, and so I was like, ah, I don't know. I'm not really sure that a business for me right now. I am very, very hesitant. Again, no business background, but I had a friend who said that she'd be willing to help me out. At first, I asked her, can I just, can I join you? And then I'll just start this area for. You won't wanna do that, you won't be satisfied, you won't be, it won't be fulfilling for you to, to work for me. You wanna start your own business. and I think she didn't want me as an employee, uh, because she knew that was a desire I had. so we got going, um, first child and, I think big part of that learning process was learning how the system worked within. The billing structure and the codes. Um, hiring. I had no idea how to hire an employee and learning payroll. Um, how to get set up with an L L C bookkeeping, getting a bookkeeper. That's my tip. Get a bookkeeper, keep those things straight. But, uh, early on I learned a lot about business and, and getting it going and, Along the way had a lot of difficult experiences, um, that opened my eyes and changed me and how I think in regards to, how to handle a sticky situation, including the hiring and firing of employees. so that was something early on I would say that I was very hesitant about because I was a part of a school program where, You don't fire students, you train the students, they're gonna make mistakes. But in business you have situations where you do have to make those decisions and prolonging those decisions will make things worse. And some circumstances maybe not, but most of the times it probably will. So. So yeah, those are a few things I learned along the way. So much more. You have any other specifics you wanna hit on? I can definitely highlight.

Jonathan: 6:15

Well, I always come back to the, the movie The Martian, um, Matt Damon, I've mentioned this before on the pod, that, um, you know, at the end if someone asked him a question like, how did you get through that? He said, you just, you solve one problem and then you solve the next problem and then you solve the next problem. And there's no way going into any endeavor and certainly into an entrepreneurial endeavor that you know everything to. Um, and so, so crucially important, you just focus on each one of those and to your point, find experts, right? That, um, you know, that that can support along the way. You know, I'm curious then, as you got toward the end of your, your eight years, what prompted you to think about selling and tell me more about the sales process.

Zach Duggar: 6:56

Sure, yeah. You know, I think those difficult moments that you encounter along the. they can be stressful and um, also create the lack of sleep, uh, that stress can bring. so, you know, health-wise, I always think about pictures that I've seen of presidents who have gone into, the office with their hair, uh, you know, dark and looking like it was when they were in their early twenties. And then you see that later picture where there's gray streak. I don't know how well those are staged or not, but, but you know, I feel like I've gotten some, some gray streaks here that, um, I may not have had before then. and I had over the years, several conversations with different companies that had approached and engaged me in conversation about the potential of, uh, selling my business. Definitely was not on my radar. I've talked to many employees that I had at the time and since then that I really was not ever planning to sell my business, because I knew how I operated and how I wanted it to operate. But as things continued to progress and we grew, Some of that, um, experience of growth strained me personally and the business financially. And so we got to points where, really saw the ship was tipping the other direction and the way that I wouldn't want to, and we. Saved it back in 2018 with several changes as you have to do in business. Sometimes you have to make difficult changes because of the financials and things that you projected that didn't come to fruition. But then in, 2020, we all experienced something that we didn't expect either, uh, when Covid occurred. And, then through that we had a lot of additional stressors. Lot of positive gains with regards to, available, funding that we didn't anticipate either. Uh, which was great, was very supportive. we had to deal with a lot of changes during that time. And, that coupled with. The changing employment environment, we were seeing, again, that trend that we weren't keeping up. And, you know, as an individual who has such a depth of, care for, for the employees and the the staff, I wanted to make sure that our services would continue. I knew it wasn't gonna be an easy change, but I knew that if we were to continue long into the future the way we were going, Well, there wouldn't be a long into the future. So, I had been in conversations with a company over several years, um, just off and on because they, they'd always been real helpful and real supportive. Even early in the pandemic, they'd reached out and said, Hey, we're going through the same things, and we would like to share resources, come to a meeting. They had so many more resources than I. And it was something I was grateful for. ultimately, the comfort level with a company that carried the same values and the same mission, same vision, was what, led me to that decision, along with the fact that we were going in a direction that wasn't sustainable anymore. So, Very difficult decision though. That was one that I, spoke about losing sleep over the years. I probably lost a lot more sleep during that time than any of the years combined.

Jonathan: 10:35

So, well, I mean, like in every year in Covid, it's like dog news, like seven years. Yeah. Like operating, not going right. Given the rapid change that happened, I, I mean, you demonstrate Zach an extraordinary level of humility and, clearly self-reflection right around what, um, what your teams needed, what your clients needed, and, and that led up to making this decision. What's one piece of advice? You wish you had going into the sales process, that you know now that you'd want to share with listeners?

Zach Duggar: 11:05

You know, communication is definitely key in timing of communication. from the start of that process, I had asked the question of, well, when do I talk to my team? When do I talk to my team? When do I tell those key people? Um, and you know, it was kind of pushed out, pushed out, pushed out, and I don't know if it would've been any better to have that conversation sooner. but I think that if I had, there may have been some individuals that had different feelings, uh, that wouldn't have felt as strongly about, concerns for the change, that there was some awareness of the consideration over time. and what we needed to do in order to, right the situation. I think that's, that's a big part of it. but really strongly consider the organization That is evaluating yours, whether or not you believe that they will carry your mission and vision forward, and being mindful that they're going to make changes, they're gonna change things that you wouldn't, um, there are some people who may not be in the positions they were before. There are people who. May choose to leave because this is not the way it was before. you can't preserve that when you have an organizational leadership change and when you have an entity that comes in to, uh, take over, so, There are some, some thoughts and considerations I would give to somebody. but yeah, ultimately you are gonna have to make the decision that you believe is best for you as the individual owner or group of owners and the other parties that are going to be involved, which primarily consists of your clients, their families, and your staff. you wanna preserve the best for them. That you can. it's still something gets to me when I think about and talk about. So I'm gonna leave it at that.

Jonathan: 13:01

Well, thank you for sharing that, Zach. I mean, in many ways people use the cliche like, you know, my organization is my baby. Right? The same way, I'm sure your first kiddo, right? That you were serving, at Brain Trust was like your baby, right? And um and it is easy for both the emotional land, um, you know, all the other aspects and nuance that make it complicated to go through that, that are hard to Yeah. Well, one thing that we've never talked about on the pod before, and I'd love your thoughts, is, when someone, successfully transitions, and I use this term broadly, quote unquote successfully transit. Yeah. Meaning generally it was their decision, right? Mm-hmm. There wasn't some, extenuating circumstance that forced them to, um, yeah. But It's not like you get a whole, I mean, there have been headlines about companies who have sold for extraordinary amounts of money, so I get that. But for most independent, a b a practice owners like this is not money that you're just going to retire to a beach in Tahiti with. and so I'd love to hear like, how did you think about setting you and your family up, financially and the kinds of things that you just, you know, you need financially, sustain yourself, but also, I mean, you gotta wake up and do something every day, right? So after being a BCBA and being a founder of an ABA practice, how do you make a decision about what's next and what did you choose?

Zach Duggar: 14:17

Yeah, yeah. First I want to, to indicate that I'd read something recently that the prior owner of Card had written after having built and grown an organization, I believe it was over a course of like 28 years, a long period of time though before she had made that decision to sell the organization. Um, you come into that with the thought that, you know, this is the right thing, the best thing for, for me, for the organization. and things do shift at times. and so you don't know exactly what will occur. And you have to acknowledge that fact. but ultimately, yeah, for myself, I would say no, that I didn't gain that golden horse to ride off into retirement from this process. so it was, a period of flexibility that I'm in now, and so determining what that next step looks like and, ensuring that we have continued freedom financially for our family and for ourselves but continuing to, stay active and engaged. so I looked at this last year, a lot of different things I was trying to evaluate what is that best next step for me. And, take a moment, breathe, and then, you know, start listening, start reading, start watching. real estate investing has been an interest of mine for a number of years, probably since we bought our first house, and I. Started to think about, you know, that gained equity over time, appreciation of value, um, and also if you had renters that they are paying the mortgage essentially for you so that over time your increase in equity comes from others paying for it. So you're not doing so fully yourself when it's not a property that you're living in. So, we had a couple of clinic locations that were purchased, while Brain Trust was an operation that I've retained. And so, I thought, well, that makes sense. And I started getting involved in some groups and some coaching. Um, so real estate investing is definitely an area that I am spending a lot of time learning about and focusing. I've done some passive investing in some other projects that other people are involved with. And then I'm working on being more actively involved in working with investors myself so that I can help them to gain some opportunities to, see their money grow through real assets. Through a property that they can directly see, they could even visit if they chose to. then in addition to that, I got in touch with a franchise consultant. It was through a relationship that I built in the real estate investment world. And ultimately really connected with what he had to say about franchises and the opportunity there. so I decided to sign on as a franchisee with an organization called Image Studios. And hopefully this year we'll be opening our first location, in Michigan with that company. So I'm excited to see where that leads, because we need an income to continue to pay our bills and to continue to sustain it if we move forward. Um, I've not lost track of that interest in, entreprenership. I've not lost track of that interest in human services. So I continue conversations with people about, the needs that exist and how I might continue to be involved. So I'm still evaluating that and with a few different people at this time. And, because of my interest in entrepreneurship, I've also started a podcast in 2023. Focused on speaking with self-made entrepreneurs and talking about their journey, learning more about what they're doing and their success and challenges along the way in a variety of different fields. So, so yeah. So that's kind of where I'm, I've shifted with the, The financial focus and, area of interest in real estate and, continue to look at how to sustain things for the long term. I've told my kids I'm gonna live till I'm 120. I'm only 40, so I have a lot to go, so I definitely can't live off what's in existence right now.

Jonathan: 18:43

Well, there's a book, blue Zones that, uh, listeners, if you have not read, you must, it's about those zones around the world. I think there are seven or eight of them in which people live to be centenarians areas beyond the age of a hundred. One of them, I think where people live on average longest is Okinawa. And I mean, spoiler alert, what does it take? Yes, it takes exercise and it takes eating healthy and all the things you'd expect. It also takes community and relationships. Mm-hmm. Like that's something that's so critically Yeah. Important. Um, but lots to unpack here. Let, let me come back to the real estate thing. Sure. Sure. So I think there's a book by is it, um, is it Robert Kiosaki, rich Dad, poor Dad. That was written many years ago. In fact, a good buddy from college originally recommended to me. I mean, I have not been a real estate investor, just to be clear. but it talks about the idea that you describe your, um, Investing in an asset, right? As opposed to a liability. Maybe many people might think of a car as an asset reality, like, you buy a car, it's a liability. you lose 20, 30% of the value as you drive it off the lot. Whereas real estate, generally the trend has been that, real estate continues to appreciate, right? So you have capital appreciation of that asset while you are getting this passive income. Whether in commercial real estate from, you know, businesses or residential real estate from renters. but it's a neat concept and absolutely belongs in a portfolio of investing. You know what always seemed hard for me, Zach, is I couldn't deal with the, oh, the dryer went out and I gotta go fix it. Oh, there's a leak in the office. Can you come figure that out? Um, and, and I know you can hire management companies, but then they take a huge cut. I don't know. How do you work through like that side of it? Are you pretty hands on?

Zach Duggar: 20:16

Yeah, so with the, uh, with the clinic locations that we are retaining ownership of, I have one individual who has a lot of experience in, maintenance and over the years, Since owning the one location in Kalamazoo, he has been very supportive in just helping take care of things when they're needed. I can just give him a call. And so I, I have few different companies that I'll call for different reasons. so I'm hands-on in that sense, but not hands-on in that I go and fix things myself. there are sometimes, We had a child break a window at that building, that I had to come out that night. Um, brought somebody else over and together we put a board in place over the window so we could have that covered while it was still a bit cold outside until we could get that fixed. But, as far as other properties that I'm involved with currently, They generally will hire property management companies and, and they're looking at the larger scale as opposed to single family homes, so that it lends itself more for property management and, there's a smaller percentage of the revenue that goes to them as a result. So, yeah, I don't personally do a lot of the direct day-to-day work, and I can definitely agree with you. I have an aunt and uncle who own some properties themselves over the years that they've acquired and. they spoke to me about some challenges that they had where some mechanicals go out and you have to address it. And you know, as you do that with a single family home, all of a sudden now you've just lost a large chunk of your income for the year as opposed to something where you have a larger scale volume.

Jonathan: 22:02

Well, another interesting thing, and I know this comes up a lot for ABA practice owners, is, you're running this, ABA business, there's a clinic and it's like, instead of just paying money to a landlord, you're thinking about, oh, should I just buy the property? Right. And if you can get it financed mm-hmm. And you assume it's gonna appreciate over time, then like the rent, you're just as going back to you. How did you make that decision to buy versus, instead of rent your clinic space with brain trust?

Zach Duggar: 22:26

Yeah, so I was renting an office setting, 3,200 square feet and we were using it for administrative space. And, uh, you know, we were paying 50,000 a year somewhere in that range. And we were also leasing space from a church for the, first location, the first clinic that we were operating locally. And when we were looking at, we needed to expand that clinic space and we were paying rent at both spaces, the thought came in as to, well, maybe we can combine and also look at buying the property so that we're not paying rent to a landlord, but paying it directly to ourselves. I really thought about it as I would, my family home where I made that decision years ago to buy a home that we would then pay off over time. So it was ultimately that same mindset coming into it. And then being able to, finance a good portion of that and then just kind of build it out over time and pay it off over time.

Jonathan: 23:31

I think that's, that's awesome. you've clearly been an entrepreneur many times over whether or not we might call that entrepreneurship. That is absolutely entrepre. Um, but okay, let's go on to image studios, cuz as I understand this is a salon, right? Yeah. Alright, so this is a departure, Zach, right? I mean, this is different from you being a BCBA serving your first kiddo in school and other like county Medicaid contracts where you're doing the work. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, gut check me, I maybe you are in, but are you passionate about the salon component? are you doing that work or, um, I'd love to know more about what does that mean to be a franchisee and, and why did that appeal so much to you?

Zach Duggar: 24:08

So the franchisee component comes in where you have a business plan that's already written out. You have marketing that's already prepared and continuously improved. You have educational materials that are present, and you have a team of people on the corporate side, the franchisor side, that are there to support you and help you to be successful because ultimately they don't make any money if you don't make any. There is royalties, fees that go to them if you are earning income. So they wanna see that be generated. when I talked to the consultant, I, I've admitted to him after the fact that I had no intention of signing on as a franchisee originally. I just thought it was interesting to explore the idea, but he helped narrow my focus down to, I think it was five or six different companies and that were potentially of interest. And fit my lifestyle and focus going forward. And this one really did because it became something of a, real estate play where I was going to be able to lease space to individual beauty professionals that would operate their own independent business out of individual suites. So in a traditional salon, you have the individual chairs that would be rent. Perhaps if that was the model used, but isn't more of an open space that a lot of people operate out of. Well, this allows for individual business professionals to have their own suite that they're leasing, sliding glass door in a luxury salon space that is well appointed chandelier's, beautiful bathroom, selfie walls. So they have the space that they're looking for. But a lower cost of rent for that space, and they can operate without employees independently. And with this concept, it also allows us to have not just hairstylists, but other beauty professionals, massage therapy, med spa. Yeah, it could be anything really that fits into that category. so I decided to sign on because of the support that's there, the plan that's in place. I know I'm gonna learn a lot from people that have a lot more expertise than I do. And I like entrepreneurs, so I'm gonna be able to work directly with all of these professionals in their role as entrepreneurs. And this organization focuses a lot on providing free education to those professionals that are leasing space in those settings. So I found that to be very, appealing and worked right in alignment with my interest to help people and, to focus on that entrepreneurship.

Jonathan: 26:44

That's so cool. And just to be clear, if you were painting toenails, I would totally trust you, Zach, to paint my toenails, I go out to salons with my two girls Anyway, um, what I love about that story is you are empowering and enabling a community of entrepreneurs. Yeah, and that seems super cool. I mean, going back to when we first hung out in that mastermind. You've been a knowledge sharer and, and I've always observed you're hungry, and you've sought knowledge. So it's really cool that you're creating that entrepreneurial community in addition to being a franchisor. And, and you're right, like the idea of having a built-in business plan, knowing that that model has been successful elsewhere. that feels pretty neat. So one other thing that you've done is has you started this Freedom Founder podcast that you mentioned. Tell me more about that.

Zach Duggar: 27:30

Right, yeah, so that was an idea that I'd been toying with starting a podcast for the last several years. I even bought a microphone and had it sitting on my desk at the office where I would, I would think about. What can I do with this and how can I share information with others? And so since that space was allowed for me to really consider over this last year about what I was doing next and where my interests lie, that whole idea of talking with entrepreneurs and enjoying those conversations so much that I wanted to give an opportunity to share what their experiences were, was ultimately what I decided on. I don't even know exactly how I met this person, but I met a woman who, um, has a podcast accelerator business, Cheryl Plouffe, uh, p l o u f f e, if, if anybody's interested in connecting with somebody who can help start them on their journey in podcasting. But, um, she had all of the platform figured out technology and that strategy, and continues to, to coach and so, I wanted to be able to connect with people and like I said, to be able to have them connect with others through that platform. so I'm taking that interest and actually putting it into action so I can finally make use of that microphone once I figure out how to get it to work. With my computer. I don't know why, but for some reason when I connect it, it just doesn't bring the sound through. So I don't know, but that's a side issue. Um, other options definitely still work, so we'll get there.

Jonathan: 29:11

the technicals we worked out well at spoiler alert, I had so much fun. You and I chatted back in January, on the podcast, and it was like you were doing all kinds of amazing stuff, like broadcasting it live and Oh, you're teaching me all kinds of things. So it's just, it's fun to now be a fellow podcaster along with you. And this is the whole notion of the creator economy. That we're at right now, right? Where people who have entrepreneurial tendencies want to go out and, um, have a message to share. It's easier than ever mm-hmm. To share that message and to, yeah, to build entrepreneurship. So that's cool. About the, the podcast accelerated business, I'll drop a link to that in the show notes. Zach, let, let me ask you, what's one thing every ABA business owner should start doing and one thing to stop?

Zach Duggar: 29:57

You know, I think one thing to stop doing is pouring yourself so much into your business that you forget others. You know, I, I think it's important that you pour yourself into your business so that you can make sure it's successful and sustainable over time. But it's important to remember that you have people outside of that business that care about you and that rely on you, not just for financial reasons, but also for that mental health and relational health reason. Because after you get to a point where you are no longer involved, when that time comes, what do you have left? you have people that you know, you probably have grown some relationship. That maybe move on to a different company or maybe they casually see you or connect with you on social media. But, friendships, family relationships, are, so essential. So that's something, uh, you know, stop and start doing. Really the combination of both there, I would say. so I guess I'd leave it at that, you know, stop focusing solely on the business and start focusing on also those relationships outside of the business. so I know it might not be your standard answer that you get, but that's something that I really have thought about last probably over this last 12 months to two years, is the importance of people.

Jonathan: 31:19

Amen. So critical. And I find myself, I mean, your, your business, um, especially for entrepreneurs in many ways can be your identity, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Yeah, as long as look, you recognize that there's a portfolio of interests and a portfolio of people in our lives, that are not directly tied to the business and it just feels healthy and like a more fun life. Um, yeah, knowing all those, so great advice, Zach.

Zach Duggar: 31:48

Absolutely. And what you said earlier about community, When you talk about those blue zones, uh, there's another book by John Robbins, healthy at 100. That is the same concept of what are these different areas doing what, what make them more likely to have so many more people who are living to a hundred or older. And community was a big part of all of those different areas that he had gone and talked with people about, researched and learned. So, I mean, that can be you, that can be you here, where you live now, not just in Okinawa.

Jonathan: 32:22

I love it. Well, I have not heard of Healthy at a hundred, so I'm gonna have to read that. We'll drop a link to that. Yeah. In the show notes. Uh, speaking of which, Zach, where can people find you online?

Zach Duggar: 32:33

Yeah, so, you can find me at, onfirecapitalgroup.com as one site. if you wanna send me a direct message about the podcast. Zach, my first name,@thefreedomfounder.com. I'm also on LinkedIn, Facebook. I haven't done much on Instagram, but I'm there. Twitter. Yeah, I'm there, but I really haven't done much there either. But my, uh, my podcast will be broadcast live on, Twitter and Facebook and YouTube. So, um, yeah, any of those.

Jonathan: 33:06

Rock on. I just got onto the gram, uh, gosh. Of fall of last year. So that's a new thing for me too. Yep. By the way, for those of you watching on YouTube, cuz we have a YouTube channel, go check it out. But Zach has this extraordinary ponytail. That whether or not you got some gray in your hair. I mean, I'm sure. Look at that thing. Oh, that's beautiful. you gotta put that into a man bun. I mean, I would pay literally almost any amount of money. I, I've got no hair left. Right. I've pulled it out, lost it over the years. That's why I grew a beard. But I would pay almost money to put that thing in a man bun. So next time I'd see you, Zack, that's what I expect.

Zach Duggar: 33:39

Alright. All right, I will be sending you a photo of that when that time comes.

Jonathan: 33:45

I love it. All right. Well, are you ready for the hot take questions, my friend?

Zach Duggar: 33:49

Absolutely.

Jonathan: 33:51

All right, Zach, you're on your deathbed. What's one thing you wanna be remembered for?

Zach Duggar: 33:56

Relationships. You know, go back to that. being somebody who helped people and always had that willingness, no matter the circumstance.

Jonathan: 34:06

What's your most important self care?

Zach Duggar: 34:09

Uh, prayer, Bible reading. Uh, I think those are essential in life. for me. Um, I also need exercise. I mean, that, that's essential too. physically feel so much better when I'm getting exercise.

Jonathan: 34:24

so what is that form of exercise that you'd lean toward?

Zach Duggar: 34:26

For, for me, I, I used to be, heavily into weightlifting. Um, yeah. Right. So, real briefly, I went through a period of time working with somebody who had done, a body building competition. And so his focus was building mass. I had no purpose doing that, but I was interested in seeing what that l could become. So, so I gained 30 pounds of muscle working out with this guy. this was several years ago now. So I, I still do a little more of a maintenance program, weightlifting, and through the pandemic I started going into YouTube and finding different body weight workout routines. and my wife laughs at the different people that I'll watch their videos and do the workout with. But same time, it, it is a great at-home workout. And so I, I've continued that even though I'm actually going back to the gym because it's just a nice breakup of the routine.

Jonathan: 35:20

Oh, so cool. All right, so I'm gonna disclose, I don't think I've ever shared this before publicly. So I was a pretty good baseball player growing up. Pretty good tennis player. I tried out for both those teams. I had moved to a new high school. Uh, tried out for both those teams did not make them. Mm-hmm. And I was like, all right, well what am I gonna do? I got huge into Weightlift. I won't say bodybuilding, I'm not sure what that meant, like 30 some odd years ago. Um, but had a little teeny tiny home, like a bar and a bench press. And all I did was I fricking pumped iron and I got Muscle and Fitness magazine and I was like so into it. So, Next time in Kalamazoo, in addition to going to a brewery, cuz you all have some good breweries there. Yeah. You have to show'em your weightlifting routine and hopefully I don't like throw that back.

Zach Duggar: 36:03

Well, yeah, absolutely. Definitely. Uh, we'll, we'll show you the weightlifting routine, but the, body weight, HITT style workouts. that'll put some sweat on for you.

Jonathan: 36:13

Those are my favorites, dude. Core. And then like, making sure my back doesn't go. That's, that's absolutely, that's Favorite song?

Zach Duggar: 36:23

Favorite song, um, Shine On You Crazy Diamond by Pink Floyd. Aww. Very long song, very excellent song. I, I love the guitar solos, David Gilmore.

Jonathan: 36:38

Uber Classics. I love it. Zach, what's one thing you tell your 18 year old self?

Zach Duggar: 36:44

Oh, my 18 year old self. Always seek advice from people who have done this before you. Don't. Don't just talk to your friends and people that are your same age because they don't know anything. Yeah. I've made some other mistakes along the way that we don't have time for today. Definitely seek advice from others. Seek mentorship at any age, really

Jonathan: 37:12

at any age. So true. Alright, finally, you can only wear one style of footwear. And what would it be?

Zach Duggar: 37:18

Tiva Sandals. I, I love my tiva sandals. They're comfortable. I've been wearing them since I was 18, had multiple pairs over the years, and I will try to wear them as long as I can until it gets too cold and bring them back out when it starts just getting warm.

Jonathan: 37:36

Rock on brother. Hey Zach. This was so much fun. Thanks for, uh, stopping by. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.