Episode 70: How Autism Became the Latest Target for Disruption with Gabe Perna

I was interviewed by journalist Gabe Perna for his December 2022 article “How Autism Became the Latest Target for Disruption." I turn the tables and interview Gabe this time about disruptions he's seeing in our field (telehealth/virtual is high on the list!), about what it means to be a content creator vs. journalist, and about how his own journey with his son, Spencer, who is autistic. Enjoy, kind listener!

Resources

"How Autism Became the Latest Target for Disruption": https://digitalhealth.modernhealthcare.com/digital-health/autism-digital-health-startups-aim-disrupt...

Gabe on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabriel-perna-b41b114/

On Twitter: https://twitter.com/GabrielSPerna

On email: gabriel.perna@modernhealthcare.com

Building Better Businesses in ABA is edited and produced by KJ Herodirt Productions

Intro/outro Music Credit: song "Tailor Made" by Yari and bensound.com

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Transcript

Jonathan: 0:30

My guest today is Gabe Perna. Gabe is the Deputy Editor of Digital Health and Business Technology, a modern healthcare brand. He's a journalist by trade and recently wrote an article on our ABA field titled How Autism became the Latest Target for Disruption. Gabe has a son on the autism spectrum and Gabe, welcome to the pod.

Gabriel Perna: 0:50

Yeah. Thanks Jonathan. Glad to be here. Really, uh, excited to chat a little bit about autism and, you know, personal and professional experience in both. So I'm excited to be here.

Jonathan: 1:01

Sounds like a plan, dude. Well, let's start right there. Tell me about your own experience with autism.

Gabriel Perna: 1:06

Yeah. So, uh, as you said, I have a son. My son Spencer, is on the spectrum. he was diagnosed when he was two, uh, two going on three. my wife, was a school psychologist, for an elementary school. So she was more versed in kind of like the signs than I was. we went through our own journeys. Like she knew from pretty early on that he had autism. I was a little bit more in denial, about it and I think I didn't even really want to hear that word. I was like, don't tell me it's that, cuz I don't think it is. but eventually it kind of just became one of those things that I was like, he's clearly has autism and, you know, I've gone through my own journey with it and, he's an amazing kid and he is really bright and he's got a lot of great support around him, both in school, he's a kindergartner now, and at home with me and his mom. And he is a private speech coach. again, on my own personal level, I've come a long way from those early days where, I probably didn't accept it and, and was worried about that term and what it would mean from his life. And now I'm really just focused on providing him the best support so he can have a great life. Uh, so that's kind of the personal level.

Jonathan: 2:25

Gabe. what was it, cause we hear this really, um, frequently from, from families who've gotten a diagnosis for their kiddo. What was it about the, even the label autism, that was sort of like, scary for you and what then helped you on that journey?

Gabriel Perna: 2:41

Yeah, I mean it's the label and it's just, to me, it scared me that for the rest of his life I. People would say he's autistic. And it's almost like they would feel bad for him and feel bad for you and, and kind of like pity you. And I didn't want anyone to pity him and I didn't want anyone to pity us. Uh, I, I often said, and, and still do believe there are a lot of people in this world, you know, kids who have cancer, kids who have terminal diseases. You should feel bad for those people you know, for those kids and for those parents, cuz that is tragic. And this isn't tragic. It, it's something that he lives with. It can be something that, you know, is a, a powerful element to his personality and it is a powerful element to his personality. Um, and obviously there's things about it that hold him back that other kids don't deal with. But yeah, it was just that label that for the rest of his life, people would be like, oh, he's autistic. Okay. Um, but I think over time I, I realized a, this is way more common than I realized. A a and that has, Helped me along the way, talking with other people who, who have autistic kids and hearing like what their kids have done and gone on to do, and just seeing what an amazing kid he is. And it doesn't really matter what label you wanna give him. He's Spencer and he's a great kid and he is very smart and yeah, there's things about him that are challenges. I'm not gonna lie and say they're not, but that's every kid, isn't it? I mean, what kid doesn't have challenges that you as a parent have to tackle head on, uh, with the kids? So I think just over time that that was kind of what changed it for me.

Jonathan: 4:36

Well, dude, high five, brother. I. Tell you, Gabe, how much I appreciate you, um, your humility and courage in coming on and, and talking about it cuz you're helping other parents right. To have those conversations. I want to transition you, you know, you recently wrote this article how autism became the latest target for disruption. And full disclosure, you interviewed me on the article, I was quoted in it, it was a, it was a really thoughtfully done article. Um, so nice work on that. But tell me more, Gabe, what disruptions are coming for the ABA field?

Gabriel Perna: 5:05

a little bit of background for the ABA folks who aren't as familiar with the digital health world, but in the last three or four years. Digital health, health technology has really kind of come into its own, with the pandemic, forcing more people to do virtual care. It's just become more of a thing. And with that interest, you're seeing more venture funds, more private equity funds, just more money being poured into the space. People in finance see an interest. They see the fact that ABA is a covered benefit by insurance. They're gonna go towards it. I mean, that's kind of our healthcare system in a nutshell, that's a different story, but virtual health has become a lot more popular and as a result, it's gone into the autism world. And I kept getting emails. Pitches from companies doing things with autistic children and autistic adults, and obviously with my background, my ears perk up and I thought, Man, what is going on in this autism space? what's kind of the disruptions, so to speak, that these companies are doing and are they helping kids with autism? Are they hurting kids with autism? Are they helping parents? Are they hurting parents? You know, my kind of journalistic hat went on and I thought, let me look into this a little bit. Uh, cuz it's a decent amount of money. we're talking hundreds of millions. Uh, there are some bigger companies that I'm sure your audience is more familiar with, like the Elemys of the world. But there are a lot, and it's not just ABA too, it's other different kinds of companies. it was just interesting to me and I just went into it and I think what I came out of it is it's still emerging. A and ABA as a field is still emerging, so you're really bringing on two kind of emerging things at once, virtual health and aba, and there are some good, there are some good ideas. There are some good companies and then there are some that maybe too much too soon. Growing too fast, trying to do too much. Um, I think, and I talked to this with you and Amanda Ralston, a lot of people who I interviewed for this piece, uh, who are pro telehealth, pro virtual health, not opposed, but a lot of people thought. Hey, like maybe we should slow down. Maybe there should be more guardrails. Um, so no one here is negatively impacted, by what's going on because there's just a lot going on. There's a lot of virtual health, autism, um, therapies just happening right now. Yeah,

Jonathan: 8:01

absolutely. And I think one of the things that, that payers who, who pay for the services, right, Medicaid insurance companies, um, will describe, My perception is that they've always been skeptical of aba, not just because it's, you know, so expensive, but because it's single subject design, which is very different from the randomized control clinical trials. And so you add this layer of having to get into a telehealth environment where, certainly there is research base out there around virtual medicine, but as it applies specifically to aba, as it applies to, are you doing it for parents, right, for parent training or to supplement parent training versus are you using it as, you know, a supervision overlap for BCBA RBT versus are you trying to Deliver ABA directly by telehealth directly to a kiddo. Like those are all potentially different kinds of disruption. And, and I think your word is, is a good one here is just what are some guardrails, right. And the evidence base that comes along with that, go ahead.

Gabriel Perna: 8:53

Well, I was gonna say, I mean, it's just that complexity that you talked about. Uh, I talked about this with a gentleman named Aaron Blocher Rubin, uh, who's a pretty big advocate in the space. And, you know, his words were, and again, none of these people are anti-virtual health they all think there's a need for it in aba, but it's just autism is very complex. And the old saying is, if you have one kid, On the autism spectrum, you have one kid because it's everyone's different and because ABA is still somewhat new and emerging, there's not like a standard for what my kid does versus what your kid does. It's just so different that it's hard to scale, which is a big part of where venture and and private equity wants their business to go. They wanna make money. I mean, that's why they put money into businesses. So yeah, that complexity makes it hard.

Jonathan: 9:51

Yeah. Well, tell me Gabe, because you are deputy editor of Digital Health and Business Technology, so, you cover not just autism services, but a whole range of healthcare. So I think your, your vantage point is really important here. Are there other disruption analogs that you have seen in other healthcare fields that could help us see what's coming for autism services in ABA?

Gabriel Perna: 10:11

Yeah, if you look at mental health right now, mental health has become a big area for virtual health because you don't like touch. I mean, you don't have to touch anyone. There's no physical interaction between the patient and the clinician. Um, and I think for that reason, it's farther along than pretty much anything else because. There's an obvious use case for it. There are parity laws, overpayment, and it's just there's a shortage of mental health providers in this country, so people are more willing to to go the extra mile. Not to mention, as a country, our mental health needs have never been greater because of the pandemic. So I think. That's an area where virtual health has moved along, and I think a lot of of the stakeholders agree. Okay, this is an important tool to increase access to people, not just people who live in urban and, and kind of more well-to-do areas, but rural areas, underserved patients. I mean, like, there's just so many benefits. Um, so there's more of. I don't wanna say a guideline cuz there's really no guideline. They're still figuring out all areas of virtual health because it is so new. But there's more established protocols I believe, I think with ABA and autism. as more people do it, as more clinicians test what works, what doesn't work. The industry will have to come together and just kind of go through the different elements of, of what works. To form those guardrails and, and I think that's what's happening in mental health to a degree. But like I said, all virtual health is trying to figure this out on the fly. Jonathan, before the pandemic telehealth visits were like less than 1%. I mean, it just like didn't happen. So now, People are figuring it out on the fly because we just weren't doing it. There was no reason to. Now there's a reason to, and people are seeing the benefits, so I think we'll see it more. It's just gonna take a little bit of time.

Jonathan: 12:33

Telehealth visits were under 1% pre pandemic and, and I mean, the pandemic really kicked off three years ago, so it's almost like it's hard to think of the days before. What percentage of visits now are telehealth?

Gabriel Perna: 12:45

Yeah, so at the peak of the pandemic, it was like 80, 90%, because that was like those first few weeks in March and April when you couldn't go anywhere. Now it's gone down to, I would say about, 10, 15, 20% mental health, like I said, is different. That's higher. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I would say, you know, probably over 30%, maybe even close to 50 for mental health, but for most specialties, probably around 10 to 15%, which again, it's still way higher than where we came from and, and I think it shows you. We're still at the beginning stages of this and, and it's exciting and, and that's why there's a lot of money being poured into it. Uh, but there's kind of that scary element where it, it's, we don't want to, to do too much too soon. We don't wanna rush into things. We don't wanna hurt kids, we don't wanna hurt parents. You know, you, you read stories of promises and cutoff services and, and those are the things where it's like we need to figure out as an industry where virtual health fits into the bigger picture. And not just with autism, but with most forms of care. Well,

Jonathan: 14:07

one of the things that feels really important about what you've pinpointed here, is that we've gotta be open with ourselves as a field to discovering what works. Best and what doesn't, and doubling down on things that are working well and just immediately shedding things that don't work well. And I'm a huge proponent of this idea, like we can't have in our, in the ABA field, this, this sense of the emperor's new clothes. Right? Like if it then we're sunk. Right. And, and I appreciate as a field we've had to fight for years and decades, right? For sort of acceptance and ultimately for funding, et cetera. But we've gotta be brutally honest with ourselves. Part of that journey that feels important is the same way that there's been so much research done about the efficacy of a b a in serving kiddos with autism and applying a b a across a whole variety. Generalizing like whole variety of populations and diagnoses and disciplines. Like that same research being done. I'm sure now around telehealth feels like an important part of that. And we should just, you know, as scientists as we are in the field, um, you know, we should be brutally honest.

Gabriel Perna: 15:12

Yeah, exactly. I think that would be true with anything. You wouldn't just say, Hey, I have this medication. I mean, you would look harshly on that. Like, Hey, I have this thing that will help your kid. No, you'd be like, says, who says, says the fda, or it says you? telehealth is kind of like that where there's parts Where it makes sense, but there's other parts, um, you know, like with assessments. my kid was assessed over two days at the Yale, child center in New Haven, which is like renowned. it was a two day process and, and even then I was like, I, I remember remarking to my wife two days, doesn't feel like that long when you are putting some label on a kid for the rest of his life. Now, I don't have any doubt that he had autism. There was no question in my mind, but take two days and then some companies I've heard do it in an hour virtually. That to me is crazy and that shouldn't be allowed. and I think that's where the, the guardrails need to be in place. And again, this is covering all the telehealth. There are rules in place on what you can get prescribed and whether you can get prescribed via telemedicine or if you have to be in person in establishing an in-person relationship. Across healthcare they're figuring this out because telehealth is new because no one was using it, and autism is no different. And because autism in this emerging field, because it's a field with money now. And because it's a primarily children, we need to be super cautious and like you said, self-critical. Even if it feels over the top, I think that would be better than just taking everything and, you know, saying, okay.

Jonathan: 17:10

Well, Gabe, I want to shift gears a little bit here, because you are the first journalist, that I've had on the podcast. So that's, that's extraordinary to me. And, you know, I am a voracious consumer of content, both journalistic content, and now what we're seeing with so many content creators these days, it feels like the lines between like journalism and, I don't know if you call it citizen journalism or just content creation, they're like totally getting blurred. So can we help, help me step back a little to the basics and like, what does high quality journalism look like?

Gabriel Perna: 17:44

so. I think it, it's funny, you're right. When I started this field, none of that existed. I mean, there was no, Twitter was just getting started. Facebook was still really only for college kids. Uh, social media has, I don't even know what LinkedIn was. If it was around back then, it certainly isn't what it is now. so social media has definitely pushed that to the forefront. And it's scary, right? Because you see people on TikTok with millions of followers saying something that's just blatantly false and you're like, oh my God. people believe that. Kids believe that. What are we doing? with anything scientific to me it has to be verified. It has to be clinically researched. I get a lot of pitches, I mean a lot, and, and I'm very, very careful as to what I'll even entertain because there's so much out there. I'm thinking, were you published in a peer review journal like JAMA or Health Affairs? do you have a viable business model in clients and customers? these are some of just the starting points. and I think as a journalist, it's, it's really our job to verify and critically look at some of these new age innovations, whether it's technology, whether it's pharmaceuticals, whatever it is. It's our job to verify and make sure that they're legit because there's just a lot of snake oil out there. Obviously the one that a lot of people point to is Elizabeth Holmes with Theranos. That was a huge story, and I think that opened a lot of people's eyes to this culture, of. Snake oil that exists out there in, in this day and age and, and certainly now with social media and just the ability to go up in front of millions of people and say something that's just blatantly not true. I is scary. We saw that during the pandemic, with a lot of the anti-vaccine stuff. You really, as a journalist, you have to be more c cautious and careful than ever. You talk to multiple people, you get multiple sources. So that's kinda what I do. but you're right. I mean, there's a lot of noise out there. It scares you and I'm glad, I mean, let me say this. I'm glad people can go out and connect with other people. I think that is a good thing. I think there needs to be gatekeepers though, because there are bad actors who will abuse their reach on social media.

Jonathan: 20:34

That's exactly right. Even if they, they're not doing it intentionally. If you're a content creator, you're creating content, right? Building a personal brand, and you're not thinking about some of the. Just sort of foundational practices of journalism, which by the way, I mean, I, I took one class in journalism in high school, and I was, I wrote for my school paper, so I'm not saying that I've got all the understanding of it, but verifying sources, right. And fact checking and, you know, and all the, the higher standards that you are held to as a journalist versus

Gabriel Perna: 21:03

whatever.

Jonathan: 21:03

whatever, like the latest TikTok influencer is just way different. Let me put you on the spot though. Okay. Ready? So, One of the publications that I love the most is The Economist. I dunno if you've ever read The Economist, you're familiar

Gabriel Perna: 21:14

I'm familiar with it. Yeah.

Jonathan: 21:16

So one of the things the Economist does is they don't publish the name of the journalist for each article.

Gabriel Perna: 21:26

That's intersting

Jonathan: 21:26

And I'm, yeah, I mean, isn't this fascinating? And I mean, they've made a decision for that, and I'm not saying that's right for the rest of journalism, but my question is, wait, if you're a content creator and you could publish content, but your name wasn't there, like, would you still do it? No.

Gabriel Perna: 21:41

I would never do that. I mean, I'm not like an egotistical guy. I don't need to be patted on the back for whatever. But at the same point, the autism article that I wrote that took weeks to come together, took me talking to multiple people, took research. There's no way, no world where I'm just gonna say, you know what, it doesn't matter if my name's attached to that. I guess if I had to guess and I'm not as familiar with that practice cuz I, I don't really read The Economist if I guessed by taking people's names out of it, they're Shifting away from any kind of personal glory and accolades you might get outta an article and you're just focused on, on the facts. So there's less room for sensationalism and, and plagiarism. Um, that's not a problem with me. I would never do that. Uh, I have too much respect for the institution, but I'm guessing that's why they do that. But yeah, I would never, I would never agree to that. I do, I put too much work into what I do to, uh, to agree to do that.

Jonathan: 22:48

Yeah, no, I hear you and I have no idea why the Economist does it, but I I think your speculation there is probably spot on. Well, the interesting thing about putting your name. As a journalist against an articles, and you're fundamentally accountable to it, right?

Gabriel Perna: 22:59

Yeah, you're right. I mean, that's exactly it. And, again, with that autism article, having a son on the spectrum, I knew I was gonna come at this from both ways. Not just as a journalist, but like people in the community that know me and know my experience with my son. So I was like doubly thinking of that. I was like, I really don't wanna screw this up because people are gonna come at me. Um, You know, even just talking about aba, you and I know, ABA has, its detractors. Um, my wife and I talk about this all the time. Um, it, it's something that we wrestle with. As I was writing it, I was like, are people gonna come at me? Cuz I, I haven't written about, the two sides of aba. Uh, are people gonna say, Hey, you shouldn't even be writing about aba cuz a lot of people with autism don't like aba. Um, ultimately I didn't put that in the article because it really wasn't the point of the article. The article is about the money. Um, and ABA is funded. By insurance companies, so that's where the money's going. But it was something I was thinking of as I was writing, so you're right. There's that accountability.

Jonathan: 24:07

Oh, Gabe, where do you go to get the latest news and, and the best, most insightful updates about the ABA field and the broader autism services field?

Gabriel Perna: 24:16

It's a good question. I mean, I read a lot. I can't say I read like a lot of studies or anything like that. I'm not. Perusing, you know, the JAMAs of the world just for autism. Uh, so I get it where a lot of people get it, just the regular news, like the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, whatever, whoever's covering the field. Um, Autism now because it affects so many people. I mean, I'm sure you've seen this too. It's just covered so much more by the, the mainstream press. I've seen it like NBC News and certain outlets like that will do stories on it. So, When I'm in groups in Facebook, uh, or wherever, people will send me articles and I'll check'em out. because yeah, it's just, it's getting way more coverage these days.

Jonathan: 25:09

Well, you named two of my other favorite, um, news, uh, organizations, wall Street Journal, New York Times. So shout out to them. Uh,

Gabriel Perna: 25:16

every day. So, you know, you gotta read the best. If you wanna be the best,

Jonathan: 25:22

Amen. what's one thing Gabe every ABA business owner should start doing and one thing they should stop doing?

Gabriel Perna: 25:27

I. So I'm sure a lot of ABA providers think they do this, but I don't know how well they do it. So I, I really think there needs to be like almost an onboarding process with each kid because each child is so different. The personalization really should be the most important part of ABA or really any therapy with an autistic child because, Every kid really is different and, and you aren't gonna get to know them in that first meeting or even the second meeting. I say this to anyone with my son, it's gonna take you a few times to understand his intricacies. What he's afraid of, what makes him excited. Uh, and really it's only like with spending time with him, Amanda, my wife and I, Amanda, we could talk about it, but if unless you actually spend time with him, you're not gonna understand it. Um, so really just focus on that personalization before you even set goals I think, like just understand who you're dealing with and then maybe make some goals. I'm sure a lot of the ABA people out there are like, well, we do that. It's goes back to that hard critical look like, are you, are you really, if you ask the parents, would they say like, yeah, they do that. I think that's where a lot of our frustration lies. Um, my son is only in ABA in school. He's not in private. Uh, we've pulled him out, um, just cuz we didn't wanna overwhelm him. In that sense both and in school and with the private provider. I remember thinking feels like they're trying to do a lot by the book and that just doesn't work I think with this, I, I think kids are just too personalized. They have too many intricacies. Uh, yeah, there's a lot of signs and there's a lot of things that autistic kids do. Again, goes back to if you have one autistic kid, you have one autistic kid. Um, in terms of what they should stop doing. I understand the iPad or the notes, I understand that's an important part. you have to take notes, but you gotta realize what you look like when you're like, I mean the kid's not a lab rat. Like you gotta engage with them a little bit more. That drives me nuts when I see them. Like, you know, like, I understand you gotta take notes. I'm not saying that you should never be on your iPad, but you should also understand when you're looking at it way too much and not soaking it in.

Jonathan: 28:06

I mean, focus on the patient, not on the technology. Right. I mean, this is something I think a conundrum that the healthcare field has faced going

Gabriel Perna: 28:14

a hundred percent, a hundred percent. Like I can't tell you how many times I've been at the doctors and he's just like on his computer, he is like, oh, you got, I see this. And it's just Hey, I'm right here. I'm a person. I'm not a set of numbers. You can engage with me, and that's just doubly important I think, in the autistic world. So definitely my recommendation is train your, your RBTs to just not look at their iPads or whatever they're using.

Jonathan: 28:40

Absolutely. Look me, look as a patient look parent, like, look me in the fucking eye and ask me open-ended. And then listen,

Gabriel Perna: 28:48

And, I mean, you're getting me on my soapbox here, but we try to teach our son about eye contact and being able to engage with someone. you can't teach a kid that if you're looking at your iPad and, and not really like looking them in the eye. So yeah, it's a pet peeve of mine

Jonathan: 29:06

Oh, so beautifully said. Well, Gabe, where can people find you online?

Gabriel Perna: 29:12

So you can email me gabriel.perna@modernhealthcare.com uh, I'm on Twitter at gabrielsperna and I'm on LinkedIn. If you do Gabriel Perna, you should be find me, there's not too many of us out there. Um, but yeah, uh, I'm always around. Happy to chat. Uh, I love chatting with people in the autism tech world. I love chatting with people in the autism world. I learn something every day about it. I learned something from my son every day about it that he surprises me and, and I think, you know, going back to that first conversation about my own journey. that's been a part of my journey. It's just like understanding how special he is and not looking at him as a label, not looking that as a Spencer with autism, but just Spencer Perna, you know, a great kid who's got a lot of cool talents and you know, really will wow you if you talk to'em. So I, I love talking about this with other parents for sure.

Jonathan: 30:12

Hells Yes, brother. And you know, this speaks to my personal crusade that this is not about. Just, just about treating kids with autism. This is about helping to make our a more autism ready and autism friendly world. So we have to look at our own behaviors, right? As as parents, as you know, typically developing peers as others, and how we're setting ourselves up to be ready to work with kids with autism

Gabriel Perna: 30:38

Couldn't agree more. Alright.

Jonathan: 30:41

dude. Are you ready for the hot take questions?

Gabriel Perna: 30:43

Let's bring it on. Bring it on.

Jonathan: 30:44

All right, Gabe, you're on your deathbed. What's one thing you wanna be remembered for?

Gabriel Perna: 30:49

Just being a good father and a good husband.

Jonathan: 30:53

What's your most important self-care practice.

Gabriel Perna: 30:57

Uh, I, I would say now it's going on the peloton. It's very challenging to keep that up when you have two kids. I have a younger son, uh, Logan too, but I try to do it at least two to three times a week.

Jonathan: 31:10

Nice. What's your favorite song?

Gabriel Perna: 31:12

ultimately it's someday by Rob Thomas. I'm sure people will laugh at me because it's Rob Thomas, but he's got a great voice and, and I love that song. I love the message that it says, and it always puts me in a good mood. So it's someday by Rob Thomas,

Jonathan: 31:27

Is this the same? Rob Thomas from Matchbox? No, no. From Matchbox 20 matchbox 20 I.

Gabriel Perna: 31:33

Which I love. I mean, I love Matchbox 20. I was a big fan of theirs growing up. Um, I, you know, you go through different musical phases throughout your life. Uh, but that's one that's always stuck with me. And, that's song always puts me in a good mood. So, yeah.

Jonathan: 31:50

Love it. What's one thing you tell your 18 year old self?

Gabriel Perna: 31:54

enjoy life while you can. And I say this, I mean, I love being a father and a husband. I wish I had lived a little after college and maybe done some fun things. I went right into work and it was a different time with the recession in 08, 09 so I think I just was like, I gotta start working. I wish I had lived a little, traveled a little bit more, figured out a way to make money. Because, you know, you don't get that time back. That's what I tell anyone who's like, that age is like, just enjoy life a little bit because you will start life, you'll start working. You know, you may get married, you may have kids, and life kind of, you know, goes from there. but that's a fun time in your life. So enjoy it. So yeah,

Jonathan: 32:44

Spot on. All right. You can only wear one style of footwear. What would would it be?

Gabriel Perna: 32:49

It's gotta be sneakers. I'm a guy who lives with comfort more than style. Um, the shoes I'm wearing now, I like tried to put on nice shoes cuz I'm in an office and I was looking at them and I was like, man, these need an upgrade. So I'm a comfort over style guy.

Jonathan: 33:05

Nice. You could never fault function over fashion.

Gabriel Perna: 33:09

Exactly.

Jonathan: 33:10

Hey Gabe, thanks so much for coming on the pod. It was great catching up with you.

Gabriel Perna: 33:13

Thanks for having me, Jonathan. I appreciate it and appreciate all your listeners, and like I said, always happy to chat with anyone, so please reach out.