Episode 68: Virtual Realty Therapy with Floreo Founder Vijay Ravindran

I'm fascinated by the intersection of digital health and behavioral healthcare. After all, if more of our lives are moving online, wouldn't our therapy trend in that direction too? Vijay helps me navigate the implications of this through the lens of Floreo, the "first behavioral therapy metaverse." It's a powerful supplement to therapy for skills that can be hard - or of high consequence - to teach neurodiverse learners: crossing the street safely and police interactions to name a couple. Welcome to the future, kind listener!

Resources

Vijay on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vijayravindran/

email: vijay@floreotech.com

Building Better Businesses in ABA is edited and produced by KJ Herodirt Productions

Intro/outro Music Credit: song "Tailor Made" by Yari and bensound.com

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Transcript

Jonathan: 0:30

My guest today is Vijay Ravindran. Vijay is the founder and CEO of Floreo, Building Virtual Reality Learning Tools for people with autism, a former Amazon veteran. He's also been the chief digital officer of a major media company, chief executive of a new startup and founding CT O of a political technology company, active in the 2008 presidential campaign. And both of us are alumni of the University of Virginia Wahoowa! Vijay, welcome to the pod.

Vijay Ravindran: 0:58

Thanks for having me.

Jonathan: 1:00

So Vijay, um, I want you to tell me about your son and how he inspired you to start Floreo.

Vijay Ravindran: 1:08

Yeah. like a lot of parents, I am the father of a child on the autism spectrum and. That means that, I've been able to see firsthand the challenges that both he has overcome. but the family. as well has had to, support and get through to, to be the kind of family we want and to help him reach the type of goals that he has. And so, he is, uh, just a super inspiring kid. and I think, that constant curiosity of where to look for, um, small improvements, climbing that rung Of skills, you know, rung by rung in that ladder that I think autism parents constantly go through. Um, ended up being a really a foundation for, who I am today.

Jonathan: 1:55

And he, just to be clear, you're not only a father, but you've been through the therapy process. I mean, your sons received a lot of therapy, so you've gotten to see firsthand, I'm guessing what works well and what not doesn't work as well. Is that right?

Vijay Ravindran: 2:07

Yeah. You know, as the adage goes, that every child is unique, uh, on the spectrum. Um, you know, definitely there's a keyhole of what's out there and what's easy and what's hard and the types of challenges families face that I've had a front row seat too. I've been in the waiting rooms in between sessions, um, chatting with the other parents. I've been, going through the struggles of, uh, being on waiting lists to get certain services done. I've had to complain about my insurance not covering certain things. so yeah, that all of that has helped inform a lot of the things I do today.

Jonathan: 2:41

So you've had this front row seat and um, in going through all that therapy, tell me about what was the moment that you were inspired that you said there, there has to be this company Floreo that needs to be started, for individuals with autism.

Vijay Ravindran: 2:54

Yeah. Well, so I was, at. My prior job, which was at the Washington Post Company, it was after we had sold the Washington Post. and so I was, starting to wind down my responsibilities, and really was curious about virtual reality. I had brought in a Oculus developer kit. Which was the precursor to the consumer version of the VR headset that, is now called the Meta Quests. I, also had bought a Samsung Gear vr and I was trying out these virtual reality applications and sort of the garage state that they were at the time. So it was still very early. It was back in 2015. And my son wanted to try it out. He spent time in VR and he engaged with it in a way that was eye-opening and that engagement where he was starting to explore, and uh, also play out in the real world. Things that he had seen in VR ended up being the, spark plug of, hey, this could be a medium for new therapy. And, that really led to. about six to nine months of exploration, where I was trying out every application out there. I brought in a developmental pediatrician and a therapist that I was friends with to start, riffing on ideas. started working with the talented engineer who, was able to take some of the napkin ideas I had and start prototyping with, and then we were off to the races.

Jonathan: 4:20

We tell me more about this notion that he engaged with it in a way that's eye-opening. Like is that due to sort of the immersive nature of vr or is it due to him being able to interact with his environment in his own way? What, what was it?

Vijay Ravindran: 4:33

Um, I don't know because it was so anecdotal at the time. Uh, what we do know since then, because we've done more formal research, is that, children, Uh, put on a headset, uh, one they put on a headset at a much higher rate. I think there was a lot of fear of sensory sensitivities and, that there would be a resistance to putting the headset on. What I've generally learned from now we're seeing, thousands of kids put on a headset with Floreo is that kids like screens. once they get over the initial kind of unknown of what is this thing that's going over my head? When they see the animations, they see what's inside and they want to be part of it. Um, they engage with a high rate. But I think the other things that we've seen play out is that it's a simplified environment in an animated world, and so they're able to lock in and focus. They're able to engage with the content and. We are able to design then virtual experiences that are focused around the skill building that we think is important for the purpose of those lessons, and the kids are able to consume it in a way that's, um, that seems to be less distracting, less, uh, overhead. Then the real world so they can work on developing that skill. And then thankfully, um, to date the research we've been able to do have, has then been able to validate that as they take off that headset and interact in the real world, they're able to generalize those skills they've obtained.

Jonathan: 5:58

That's powerful. And, I'd love for you to give an example of one of those skills. I know I've gotten to see a demo. I was really fortunate too, and it, it is super cool. Um, but where my eyes opened up was like, whoa, imagine being able to teach, a skill that could otherwise be super dangerous to teach in the real world, like, I don't know, crossing the street or something like that. Um, but you can teach that through Floreo, is that right? Tell me more about some of these skills.

Vijay Ravindran: 6:21

That's right. Floreo is able to teach skills that are hard to teach for a number of reasons. Um, it might be hard to teach because. The child is not engaging with the lesson or the, the skill you're trying to teach. So in the context of, for instance, our joint attention lessons, really, you know, fundamental eye contact development and nonverbal gesturing uh, coaching. We can use cute animals to draw the child into engaging rather than, doing it in the real world. We can create funny animations and, you know, sounds that engage the child to, to stay with it. as you referenced, some of the skills that we teach, are either hard to replicate or have consequences if you get it wrong that you just don't want to, deal with. And so, crossing the street, you know, we're able to not only go through the basics of the walk sign and the pedestrian cross button and looking both ways, and validating that the cars have come to a stop. we have lessons that have Jay walkers. We have lessons where the cars run the red light and you have to use your eyes to visually verify that it's still safe. Um, we have stop signs. So basically there's all these edge cases that. You need to teach because in the real world, they're all there. And if they get it wrong again, it's highly consequential. Similarly, when we started demoing and exhibitions some of our early lessons, we had a number of families, especially, minority families, say, I've spent all this time on therapy. My child is walking to the corner store by themselves or walking to school. And I'm really fearful that if they have a law enforcement interaction, they won't know the right thing to do and it can turn really dangerous. And, um, you know, basically this happened coinciding summer 2016 with a therapist in Florida who was trying to help an adult come back to their group home. Someone called the police. Police ended up shooting The therapist. Therapist thankfully survived. And that was in 2016. It, it's only become more and more true each year that there's incidents like this because, um, a neurodiverse child or teenager or young adult is not gonna necessarily act in ways that are predictable to the police. Um, and so we started working with Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and developing lessons on law enforcement encounters that have gone through significant amounts of research now. And, and, uh, we've been able to show that we can, recreate these very difficult to teach scenarios and, the neurodiverse learner can absorb those skills at a much higher rate than the current methods that are out there.

Jonathan: 8:46

Dude, I have the chills right now. I literally just got goosebumps as you were describing that cuz you're right, our world has only like progressed to, for many different reasons. but to being dangerous for a neurodiverse learner, And I mean, what feels particularly important, and it sounds like research has been done, it actually general generalizes to the real world from the headset. Um, they will carry those skills with them. Is that right?

Vijay Ravindran: 9:08

Yeah, I think a lot of research sometimes uses tests that approximate where skills are, and those are important cause those tests are validated. The, the law enforcement interaction had a very novel design by the researchers at Children's Philadelphia. We actually recruited the Philadelphia Police Department to interview the participants of the study and videotape that to see how well they handle the interaction of talking to a police officer. And so, uh, the control group received equal number of minutes in the most commonly used video modeling, um, therapy that's on the market. The treatment group received Floreo. A Philadelphia officer interviewed the participants of the randomly controlled trial, the researchers at Children's Philadelphia then scored, each set and floria showed twice the effect in skill acquisition, minute for minute. And so the power of VR in these types of skills, especially ones where, you know, there might be anxiety and intimidation and you know, in the moment pressure being felt. You can start to build that, uh, practice and exposure in virtual reality in a way that you just can't otherwise. And, you know, it's unrealistic to be able to find an officer to train every child on an interaction. just like it's unrealistic to, you know, park an airplane at the airport and have every kid go through boarding an airplane and practicing, before a family has to go to the airport. And so there's all these situations in the world where, VR can create these immersive simulations that allow us to practice the real world and using the clinical knowledge that we know from traditional therapy that we can design it in a way that leads to generalized skill building that we can also take into account using current game design techniques, how you can make it fun and engaging for the kids so that they do it.

Jonathan: 11:01

what you're teaching, I mean it generally is based on the principles of applied behavior analysis. Is that right? Or are you incorporating other types of therapy?

Vijay Ravindran: 11:09

Yeah, so we do have, a BCBA on staff and we do, um, obviously work with quite, quite a number of ABA clinics. We also have, uh, a senior speech therapist. We also, uh, look at the current research that's out there and incorporate those techniques. So we try to model all of our lessons over on certain, current real world techniques. Sometimes they. Uh, being very similar to aba. Sometimes they might look like cognitive behavioral therapy outside of the ABA construct. the important piece is that the lessons are constructed in a way that they can be adopted by, um, a number of different practitioners from special education to ABA to speech therapy. I think one of the things. Uh, you know, interesting about how services are delivered, to Neurodiverse learners is that they can come from a lot of different sources. And so if you're trying to help, a child with their classroom behavior, well, they might be getting that through an IEP in the school district. we might be trying to work on it through the ABA clinic that they're visiting. They might be also seeing a psychologist and having, uh, you know, different types of talk therapy go through it. And so we try to build lessons in ways that they can be a tool and be utilized and incorporated into these different methods that are out there.

Jonathan: 12:28

Well, the future clearly is here, Vijay, and you and Floreo were building it now. Um, I think I recently saw that Floreo announced there's a CPT three code. Reimbursable code that ABA providers can use. Is this true? So like, tell me more about

Vijay Ravindran: 12:43

so, so there is a code. Um, the reimbursed part is something we are aspiring to and working towards. We need the provider community's help to get there. And so, but it's a very important and exciting development. It was a breakthrough in the entire VR healthcare industry. We are the first company to push through. A CPT three code in the mental or behavioral health space and the code, which was approved last summer and went live in January of this year, um, the code is 0770T and it essentially defines a practice expense for a provider to incorporate VR as part of their um, uh, treatment. So if you're an ABA clinic and your RBT, or BCBA is using one of the standard ABA codes and decides to incorporate VR to augment the effectiveness of that session. There's a code now that you can add. Um, now CPT three codes, uh, are temporary or tracking codes. Um, and, it's part of a multi-step process that we are trying to pioneer. To open up reimbursement for utilizing these types of technologies. And Floreo is on the front lines of this. There's other companies trying to push on other aspects of the healthcare system, such as Hicks picks codes and such. In our case, we're focused on CPT because Floreo is meant to be utilized by professionals like ABA clinics. And so the goal right now with current customers is to start educating and coaching them on utilizing the code. they have to talk to their payers on what the payer's comfortable with. For now, it might be as simple as adding the code and not asking for any reimbursement dollars. The tracking itself is vital to where we're trying to go. As we're able to feed data to the payers, that VR is being meaningfully incorporated by quality ABA clinics. We are setting the stage so that we can eventually, Provide the evidence needed to create the reimbursed pathway. Our goal is eventually to make it such that, clinics can choose to improve the quality of service without feeling like it's costing them extra money to do that, that we get to a place where it's at a minimum, a neutral decision and ideally one that can be another service. The clinic provides members of a payer and so there are several things we're doing in parallel to that. So in addition to the code and coaching customers to add the code, we want to be able to work with, the larger providers to start talking to payers about you should be incenting this. you should be incenting it in situations where telehealth is being used, for instance, because, our system works over telehealth and can create a much higher quality training experience for the individual than just simply using video conferencing. We also are building up the research base that payers will no doubt want to see. So some of that includes, ABA related research that we're doing, with, a couple of institutions. Right now. We are also working with, research focused institutions like Cortica where we have an eye towards the FDA path for the system. So our goal is to eventually also be an FDA approved medical device so that, we can create all of the justification in the world that ABA clinics need to show payers that we are incorporating best in class technology to improve the outcomes of our clients.

Jonathan: 16:18

Well, this combination of digital and services is the future of healthcare, and certainly the future of mental and behavioral health. I, I have conviction around that. But if I'm a listener, Vijay, and I want to get, I like, I wanna go try this. Now what? Where should people go? Where would you direct them?

Vijay Ravindran: 16:33

if you go to the Floreo Tech website, you can, immediately get started. if you want to get started with a single learner, um, You can go all the way to getting signed up and being able to download the app if you want to talk to our sales rep, because you have aspirations of using this in a clinic center type capacity. Maybe you want the equipment leased to help facilitate getting started without having to make a capital cost. We're here to help you. We have different, packages available for different sized clinics to be able to take advantage of the system. it's very easy to get started. most therapists need less than an hour of training to get going. Um, and there's over 200 lessons in our catalog. And as part of that, we also will provide, what we have learned so far about the CPT three code, bearing in mind that, um, we are blazing brand new trails. No one's done this before. We're on the front lines of basically introducing VR as an augmentation to therapy and, and doing that in a way that fits into the healthcare ecosystem.

Jonathan: 17:32

Wow. Awesome. We'll make sure to drop a link in the show notes to that. And you know, I mean, element RCM is a billing company. I'm gonna have to go see if any of our customers are currently using Floreo, but we'll have to chat separately cuz I'm very interested in seeing what happens when we build for the 0770T. And yes, let's build this body of research, but this is like, Okay, so if that's not exciting enough, I think I also saw that it was recently announced that, meta formally Facebook, but meta, and Floreo have an immersive learning partnership. Tell me more.

Vijay Ravindran: 18:02

Yeah, yeah. we're deeply honored that Meta has, selected us as one of their immersive learning partners. the partnership, and the peer set that we are in is education focused, and so we are one of several education focused virtual reality companies that Meta has, uh, handpicked to work with. we're the only special education or neurodiversity focused, company in that mix. So the others are general ed stem as such. and it's great. We are able to offer school districts that want to try to incorporate Floreo into their special education, free Meta Quest 2 headsets for their classroom that they can keep after the pilot is over. we also are offering heavily discounted Floreo licenses, so a classroom license typically is around$5,000. But for a low cost of a$250 setup fee, you can get access to Floreo through the 2023-24 school year and, free Meta Quest 2 headset to get going. And so, we are really, excited about this program. It's a way to really jumpstart, you know, we've been primarily ABA Clinic focused in who we talked to, um, during the pandemic and since then and. And this is an opportunity cuz we know the product can be just as valuable in a special ed context.

Jonathan: 19:24

Wow, you all just have like a whole bunch of interesting irons in the fire and I'm super impressed. So like what does wild success look like for you, Vijay and Floreo?

Vijay Ravindran: 19:34

Yeah. You know, I started the company with the goal in mind, which is to reach millions of kids and raise the ceiling of what's possible for a neurodiverse child, Floreo in Latin means blossom. and the goal is to help every child reach their full potential. And so, you know, for us, wild success is, we want every ABA clinic, every special education program, every speech therapist to be looking at the incorporation of VR to raise the ceiling on what's possible for a child. And we think there's lots of reasons why that should happen. we're building the evidence base right now and we have a lot of evidence showing efficacy and we're building more beyond that, it's enjoyable for the children. Which I think is a really big consideration. it augments telehealth basically 10 x is what you can do with Telehealth because the VR scenes can be so powerful in conveying the skill in a way that Zoom just can't replicate with the population we care about. And it generates lots of valuable data, and data's really important in understanding whether someone's improving. And obviously in the context of aba, you know, data is the lifeblood.

Jonathan: 20:42

Wow. So what would, uh, wild success look like for ABA providers using Floreo?

Vijay Ravindran: 20:48

there are several things to think about. I think one, the simple areas that are leading to traction today are we allow skills that they're not able to teach to their clients to be taught, which we know leads to life success and can lessen the strain on families. We allow telehealth to be taken to a new level, and that's an emerging area of opportunity, especially as we see, some of the challenges that the ABA industry has in, in scaling today. but the other ancillary benefits that we haven't really studied yet, but you hear anecdotally from customers that are really interesting is rbt enjoy using it. it creates structure for them where sometimes, the challenges that are put at their feet are very unstructured and difficult. It also creates standardization so that, knowing what RBT turnover can be like at an ABA clinic, this is an opportunity to standardize elements of teaching so that they can be delivered in a predictable manner across a workforce that might be changing over, from time to time. at a starting point, you know, reduced R B T turnover, happier families, improving and gaining new skills, and being able to incorporate telehealth to create more workforce efficiency and family flexibility because, Again, I've been there. The commute time to the clinic, the waiting time in the waiting room, that's not as productive of at home. All of those things add up for families, and so there's a lot of opportunity there. Um, beyond that, I mean where we're headed is the CPT three code, building payer awareness, and eventually reimbursement around the use of vr. That's where we're going, but we need the industry's help to get there.

Jonathan: 22:29

Well, I wanna boomerang back to, you mentioned that uh, you're gonna be exploring or perhaps you started an FDA approval process for the device itself. I gotta be honest, Vijay, the FDA approval has always felt like this freaking black box to me. Things go into it, and then they come out some number of years later and they're approved. Can you demystify the FDA approval process for me and, and why this is important to Floreo's strategy and ultimately to the, the kiddos you're serving.

Vijay Ravindran: 22:57

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, you know, software can, can be classified as a medical device. Floreo today, in its current state is a tool for professionals to use to improve the service they already deliver. And so, we do not treat Autism, we'd make no claims about improving the skills by itself because we're not an FDA approved medical device. That's the, The line is that, you know, you need you need FDA approval to say from a marketing standpoint that you treat or cure a medically diagnosed condition. And so for us, FDA approval, we believe is key to bringing payers to understand the value of a technology like this being incorporated into a provider's toolbox to create the reimbursement pathways that are needed, to encourage, especially when you think of like some of the challenges the providers have around telehealth reimbursement and getting the, the payer to value that. We think it's really important to give the credentialing and badging that a provider needs to show the payer that they are using top-notch tools to deliver high quality service, to lead to good outcomes. that's the main, you know, element of why. So it's a multi-step process. essentially, we have had enough dialogue now that we know what type of research measures are important to the fda, for the types of claims that we want to make. and now we're conducting research that are based off of that knowledge to get to the data that we need to provide them. But our goal is to be the first, um, FDA-approved treatment to improve social skills and autism. and we think, uh, if we can do that, we can give an invaluable capability to providers.

Jonathan: 24:44

And what's the timeframe on that?

Vijay Ravindran: 24:46

it's at least a year and probably, something in 2024 to stay tuned on. but there are intermediate progress points where as we complete research milestones, we'll have the opportunity to present that research So I think it's not a binary thing. I mean, the approval is, but the, the things you do along the way, each have value in its own right. And, and some of those can both, help with building confidence amongst providers and with payers.

Jonathan: 25:20

Right on. Well, I want to, um, pivot a little bit here, and, and talk some more about your background and what got you into, ultimately into Floreo i. You know, it's cool to mention you at the Washington Post. Um, you know, we both went to the University of Virginia. I grew up for some of my, childhood in the Washington DC area. I was a political junkie back then, and I could not get enough of the Washington Post Amazing, extraordinary publication. Um, but you led engineering teams at Amazon for like seven plus years. in addition to all of your other background, like what did you learn from that experience and how it applies to running great technology and service organizations?

Vijay Ravindran: 25:55

Yeah. Yeah, I spent my formative years professionally at Amazon from 98 to 05. Um, and it was a, you know, crazy rollercoaster, exciting time for Amazon. we were darlings then we were, headed to the dust heap then we were, you know, brick by brick building a great business again. the Amazon core competencies of having a bias for action. showing high degrees of ownership, being obsessed about customers. Those, uh, those have been critical, foundations for how we approach everything I've done since. the other thing that was amazing about my time at Amazon was the talent, uh, that you're around, you're around other people that were extremely passionate and intelligent and driven, and it has, you know, led to, having high standards and, and really wanting to build great teams around me to be successful. Um, so yeah, I owe a lot to the formative time there. and the other piece of it is that, you know, Amazon is a retail company, but one that leveraged technology to create whole new mediums for how to think about retail and what's possible. And I think that's true in a number of industries that, um, we continue to still really only scratch the surface of how technology can transform it.

Jonathan: 27:10

Well, I in particular have appreciated about Amazon going back to, actually, I wrote a case study when I was at, AT Kearney, a management consulting firm. 2000, maybe 2001, about Amazon versus eBay. And um, that was probably in like close to the dust heap times, potential dust heap times before you all just rocket ship. Um, but uh, this idea of being obsessed about your customers just feels so important, right? Like at the end of the day, any organization and particularly service organizations, like strip it all away and just figure out. What does your customer need? Right? Doesn't it seem like that's, from a first principles thinking the right client question to always ask to orient true North?

Vijay Ravindran: 27:51

It, it is, although, you know, things can be perverted in systems like healthcare where, is that customer your payer or is it the family receiving the service? Um, one's paying the bill versus one is receiving the product. And I think that does create, tensions that don't fit so easily in the Amazon, you know, consumer mindset that we were able to work in. So, you know, I recognize that it's a challenging. World that, um, Floreo is in now that, is different than, um, you know, selling something online. but the other things that were also like, you know, I remember for instance, I ended up working on, some of the early Amazon marketplace technology that, would initially compete with eBay and ultimately enable the third party sellers on Amazon, which, created, you know, so much of its growth and. The opportunities to think about hard problems and try to solve it where it was really important. I think when you look at, you know, some of the differences between eBay and Amazon. One was that, eBay had lots of these different listings but had trouble, the eBay system had trouble being able to say that these five listings are actually the same product and someone might want to price compare easily between those. Or leave a customer review that applies to all of those. and meanwhile at Amazon, we ended up spending a lot of time on hard problems, such as understanding whether five different things were actually the same thing. And once you figured that out, then you could do wishlist and you could do customer reviews and um, you could basically open up all these features that customers loved that eBay was not able to do. And, and so, I think there are always opportunities to invent, to solve tough problems that open up new opportunities that, uh, that you wouldn't have otherwise had. And I think that's true here too.

Jonathan: 29:36

Uh, it's like taking at marketplace technology like next generation. I appreciate the peak behind the curtain on that Vijay. Well, tell me like what, what insights do you have about where our ABA field is headed?

Vijay Ravindran: 29:47

as a parent, I think the thing that was always challenging was the number of hours and, each of the models had advantage of the disadvantages, whether the treatment was being delivered in the home or whether you're going to the clinic. You know, when I look at where the world is going, and especially coming out of the pandemic, I just think telehealth is such an overarching movement that, um, it needs to be baked into every business plan and it needs to be understood in the context of this industry. I happen to believe that, There are really no substitutes to what we're developing in virtual reality, in conveying, you know, social skill development and, life skill coaching. As, as the world moves towards telehealth. But I think the model is obviously labor intensive. the one-to-one model of, uh, adult working with a child, creates lots of constraints. and so I think, you know, those are kind of first order challenges that are out there for, um, for inventors. the other piece is, trying to understand, uh, and measure progress in ways that allows families to make trade-offs on the opportunity cost of, one therapy versus the other. Or one therapy versus more playtime or more opportunities to do other activities that widen their skillset. So, you know, I think, those were some of the things that I observed as a parent.

Jonathan: 31:12

I appreciate your insights on that. Not just comparing therapy to therapy, but there's a huge opportunity cost on a kiddos and, and a family's time, right. Given the intensity so that, that feels like, as you said, first order challenges to solve. Well, what's one thing every ABA business owner should start doing and one thing to stop doing?

Vijay Ravindran: 31:28

Well, I don't appreciate all the challenges cause we are not a service business. We're licensing software and not in the meat of it. I mean, I think, um, The thing they should always be doing is to have high standards on who they hire and, and try to hire great ethical people because as if someone, again, as a parent, you can feel extremely vulnerable in, um, in working with an ABA provider and the time they're spending with the child. And, you know, that's, it's, it's everything. And so, it's really important to, to keep standards high in who our RBT and BCBAs are, and continue to insist, the best that we can, we can provide. as far as what to start doing. Um, you know, I, I think we talked about telehealth. I think that's a really important area. I would also think about what type of tools. Are used in the clinic that can convey into the family's homes to allow the family to supplement and create ways to connect with their child to see that improvement firsthand. the other thing that I observed as a parent is that it's a black box that, you know, especially, you know, ABA is focuses on small improvements over time that lead to big improvements. And, um, as a parent, it often felt like, am I seeing any improvement? I can't quite tell. and ways to help communicate that or have them be able to witness some of those improvements firsthand, I think could go a long way to the type of commitment needed. a lot of families reach out to me now because of what I do in my day job, um, as their child gets a diagnosis. The reality is that, many families have trouble, I think rationalizing the level of commitment needed, given all their other priorities of the family, needing to work and such. And I think, the more we can do to allow families to see how you are raising the ceiling for the child and what those progress points are and how to show that, the more commitment we can get so that that child can make it.

Jonathan: 33:28

I think you were spot on this idea that families have trouble rationalizing that level of committment it meant this is the elephant in the room that I think our field doesn't want to talk about. But that's so true. And I mean, you have firsthand experience as a parent, um, and what those trade-offs might involve. So thank you for sharing that and for your vulnerability, Vijay. Uh, and tell me where can people find you online?

Vijay Ravindran: 33:49

LinkedIn is where I do most of my social posting, I welcome anyone to connect there and, uh, I answer every message I get if, it's just not a sales pitch and then my email is vijay@floreotech.com. you can also reach me through the Floreo] website. we also have a newsletter that we send out once a week that, both capture some of the things that we're seeing in the industry, but also shines a light on some of the really interesting innovation we're up to. So we just showcased, for instance, new adult job skills, training lessons that we, released as part of a partnership with the Tennessee department of IDD so we are, creating lessons around teamwork and time management. And how to use the public transportation system with the goal of, they're looking to incorporate that into some of the work programs that are in the state. And we think that could be a model for other states too. Um, you know, it's, uh, the challenges never end, I think, um, in the space we're in. And that's especially true when you think of post 21 years old employment, like independent living skills.

Jonathan: 34:46

Well, I'll definitely drop those in the show notes, but more importantly, I want listeners to hear this, you know, be hungry and voracious for knowledge. Sign up for that newsletter. I, I know I'm not on your newsletter, I don't think, and I'm gonna go sign up for it. But the more we, can learn about what's happening in our field that's beyond our, what can be more narrow, aperture, the day-to-day work we do, uh, the better and more equipped we'll be, I think, to serve our, our clients and our teams. Well, Vijay, are you ready for the hot take questions?

Vijay Ravindran: 35:13

Okay, shoot.

Jonathan: 35:16

Here we go. You're on your deathbed. What's the one thing you wanna be remembered for?

Vijay Ravindran: 35:20

Um, commitment to my family.

Jonathan: 35:23

What's your most important self-care practice?

Vijay Ravindran: 35:26

Um, I make time for college football.

Jonathan: 35:30

Wait. University of Virginia football or more

Vijay Ravindran: 35:32

Oh, no, I don't, I don't care about U v A at all in sports. I, I grew up in Oklahoma. I'm a sooner boomer. Sooner.

Jonathan: 35:41

Well said. I love it. Uh, there's not much to talk about when it comes to U V A football, at least my experience over the last three, four decades. Do you have a favorite song or music genre?

Vijay Ravindran: 35:52

Well, I mean, it changes from time to time. Uh, I think. I love the into the Spider verse soundtrack. but recently, I think when I'm in a mood, I've been listening to the OB one Kenobi soundtrack. and then probably for a specific song right now, um, my kids are really into Star Wars, if you can tell. Um, and, uh, the Andor soundtrack has that electronic pop, song, which Cassian kind of walks into club in the first episode. And that, that's pretty cool beat.

Jonathan: 36:21

Well, I have seen that, most of that series and oh my gosh, dude, yep. I actually vividly remember that scene. Nice. I love that you're a Star Wars nerd, just like me. Uh, and it sounds like your kids are as well. What's one thing you tell your 18 year old self?

Vijay Ravindran: 36:35

Take your time and don't feel so much pressure to grow up.

Jonathan: 36:40

And Vijay, if you could only wear one style of footwear, what would it be?

Vijay Ravindran: 36:45

Oh, uh, black LeBron high tops.

Jonathan: 36:51

Mike Drop. Vijay, thank you so much for coming on the pod. It was so fun to talk about Floreo and your background. I appreciate you, sir.

Vijay Ravindran: 36:59

Thank you. Thank you for having me.